Inside the Delphi Trial: Aspen Connor’s Court Room Reflections

In this powerful conclusion to our two‑part conversation, True Crime with Tiff Kline sits back down with Aspen Connor — a member who attended the Delphi trial in person and has stood beside Abby and Libby’s families throughout their long fight for justice.

In Part 2, Aspen opens up about what it was really like inside that courtroom: the tension, the emotion, the moments that shook everyone present, and the strength he witnessed from the families who continue to carry the weight of this tragedy every single day. We also dive into Richard Allen’s appeal, what it means for the case moving forward, and how the community is processing the latest developments.

This episode goes beyond headlines and legal filings. It’s about humanity, truth, and the ongoing pursuit of justice for two young girls whose lives mattered — and still matter.

Join us as we close out this conversation with honesty, compassion, and a commitment to keeping Abby and Libby’s names alive.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hi guys, welcome back to True Crime with Tiff Klein. I am back with season two, episode 14. Back with part two featuring Aspen Connor. You guys told me that you enjoyed him being on the last podcast and you wanted more. So he will be on tonight. And we're stepping back into a case that had shaped an entire community, a case that echoes through the hearts of anyone who has followed the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty Germain in Delphi, Indiana. Joining me once again is someone who doesn't just know this case from headlines or documentaries. He lived it up close. Aspen Connor, who attended the Delphi trial in person, who has stood beside Abby and Libby's family, who has witnessed their strength, their heartbreak, and their unwavering fight for justice. Part one, we discussed Aspen's relationships with Abby and Libby's family, a little bit of his experience in Delphi, the tension, the emotion, and the weight. But tonight we're gonna go deeper. So Aspen, I'm just gonna introduce you again. Thank you for joining me. I know last time we had fun and uh people wanted you back. So thanks for for jumping back in.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Well, thank you for having me. I really do appreciate it, and I appreciate the um the really kind uh intro. I didn't write it or anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

It's okay. That's just uh that's just personal from me. So um, we're just guys, we're just gonna have a little bit of a conversation. I want you guys to hear Aspen's experience about the trial, what it was like to see it, feel it, hear it, and just be there. So with that being said, I will dive right in. Oh, Aspen, I know you went to Delphi. You've been there a few times. You just got back from there, didn't you?

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Uh yes, I did. I um I actually I I lost lost count, but uh since the first time I went to Delphi, I I've spent well over 200 days um in Delphi. And the majority of those uh those trips, especially since the trial has ended, have been for um for completely different reasons. Just because I've, you know, I've come to really grow to love the town. I've gone to support different events, different charity things. I volunteered for the bacon festival last year. I was a judge recently uh for a competition they had in town. I went for a uh fundraiser for a um racing event for one of the beast cousins. So yeah, I mean, any chance I can find to go to Delphi, I usually end up there. And everyone jokes that I'll end up moving there one day. And I say, well, not until I can become mayor.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Oh well, I've never been there, so they'll give me a reason to visit. Um I grew up in Ohio that's close. I've only been to Indianapolis, but it was very, very brief.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

So Well, I will take you there anytime you want to go.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

All right.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

We will definitely I think I have an honorary, I think I have an honorary citizenship.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Aspen and I like to travel a lot, so I feel like we're gonna be travel buddies. I'm like, oh, what are you doing this weekend? I might go to, you know, I might go to the Bahamas. All right, I'll f I'll get a ticket, I'll I'll see you there. That's how it's gonna be, I feel like.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

I hear there's someone that might need our help there.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah, uh that Lynette Hooker case, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

So, all right, let's let's set the let's set the scene here. When you walked in to the courtroom for the first time, what struck you the most about the atmosphere?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

The first time I had walked into the courtroom, of course, was actually before the trials because I had gone to a few of the hearings. I, you know, I I you know we to discuss that in the last in the in the the first episode that we did. Um I will take one step back though and and then let you know that because of the size of Delphi, um, they chose a jury from a different county in Indiana. And so the jury um pool was taken from Fort Wayne, which is also actually where the special judge was from, Francisco. And so starting on November um October 13th of 2024, there were four days of jury selection scheduled in Fort Wayne. And Fort Wayne, for anyone that is not familiar with Indiana, is about two hours from Delphi. And so the four days of jury selection were to take place in Fort Wayne, which is beautiful. And once the jury was seated, um, the jury was sequestered, and then everything moved to Delphi and Carroll County, which is a very small, very small courtroom, small courthouse, beautiful though, in the town square. Um, I believe that on average there were about 16 to 20 seats available for the public. So a very small courtroom. They were not.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Did you have did you have to get there early in the morning to like get a seat?

SPEAKER_00 4:53

So that's you know, and that that and so that's where I was leading with it, is that you know, so I went to the jury selection in Fort Wayne, and um, and that was an intense four days. I never I never sat through a jury selection before, but it was really, really interesting for anyone that's kind of like a law nerd like I am. Um, and that was my first forte into that. Once jury uh the jury was seated, I think that was the trial was scheduled to start on the 17th, which but which would have been a Thursday or Friday, if I remember correctly. And literally, once the jury was seated, everything was like, okay, great. We'll see you tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. in Delphi. Um, so we, you know, I did the two-hour drive to Delphi, checked into my Airbnb, who I was staying with the first couple of days with some friends that I knew there. And we had planned on just, you know, relaxing and kind of going to dinner and and getting, we knew we'd have to get there early in the morning because it is, you know, a small courtroom. We knew there would be a lot of public interest. There were not cameras in the courtroom. That is something that, you know, has been very controversial, something that I personally have gone back and forth with. And so I got into Delphi, checked into the Airbnb, and then about seven o'clock that night, I got a text message that there were people in line outside of the courthouse.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

So this was the night before opening statements. And I had slept very little even at that point because we had to get to jury selection early. I mean, not that early. We would get there around five or six in the morning, you know, just to make sure we could get in and and have a seat. And there weren't as many of us there for that. But, you know, as soon as you hear that there are people in line and you've literally, you know, taken six weeks of your life and put them on hold. I own a bit I own my own business, I have family, you know, all of those things were were put on hold so that I could come support Libby and Abbey's family and and really see that those girls got the justice that they deserved. And um, you didn't want to you didn't want to do all of that for then not be able to get into the courtroom. Absolutely. So we, you know, the two friends I was staying with the first couple of days, we literally just decided, okay, let's shower, get dressed, and head to the courthouse. And so that's what we did. And that set the tone for the entire trial, which over the course of the five weeks became increasingly earlier and earlier and earlier, to the point where the court started to break the sessions into lunch or morning and afternoon. And if you were in line for the morning session, which you would have to literally leave court after it ended at night and get in line.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Wow. And to be back in for the next morning.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

To be back in for the next morning. And they then decided that that did not guarantee your spot for the afternoon. So they started a second line for the afternoon. So for you to attend both morning and afternoon court sessions, it became very it became very interesting. And it became very contentious, and it became very um at advert yeah, I would say um argumentative at times between people.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Some of the larger people that were there covering the trial had incredibly kind, wonderful viewers. You know, many of us were, many of you are probably right now, that lived locally and that volunteered to actually go sit and take, be a line a line holder.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

And that was such some that was something that was just so kind. And and people started to do it for me, and I'm not, and I'm not, you know, I'm no one. So I, you know, so for people to go out of their way to to sit in literally the snow, rain, freezing weather overnight, just so that you could then and then they would leave and let you go in. Some people were paying people. I know I know of one I know of someone that was paying someone five hundred dollars a night to sit in line. And so yeah, I mean it it became it became I think anyone that went to the trial would agree with me that they would say it became a very intense, traumatic, almost Lord of the Flies type situation. And that I wanna I want to make sure I I I say does not matter. None of that should even be important because every single one of us that was there chose to be there. Libby and Abby did not choose what happened to them. Their families did not choose to have to sit in that courtroom every day, but they did. And so, you know, I do I I will would do it a thousand times over again if I got to be there to support them. Absolutely. I'm not complaining when I say that it, you know, that you know, it doesn't take away from some of the the the events that took place that were shocking or traumatic, but but it was not about us.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Were you able to get to both sessions every day, or were there some that you missed?

SPEAKER_00 9:49

I was there. Uh I there was not a time that I was not able to get to get in. There was one day that I woke up and my eye was swollen and like ru was pouring water. I went to court, I made it through the day, and and someone was like, You have an eye infection. So the next day I um I did not go to court. And and and funny enough, I got a message from from a family member of one of the girls that night that said, We I'm you know, I know you aren't in court today. I hope you didn't go home. But for if you did miss a day, don't worry. It was nothing but um it was all very technical stuff. She was like, you know, she's like, so you you you know, you you didn't miss anything of of huge substance. So so that was nice. And I will say, just as a side note, um, I know Alphi is a very small town. I I didn't know if there wasn't even an eye doctor in town. I I don't have a healthcare provider through there. I couldn't call my doctor and get a prescription out of state. Um, and I didn't even know what it was. Like, you know, so I assumed they were just giving me some antibiotic for an you know an eye infection. And um, I someone that lived in town made a tele a televisit for me with a local doctor, had the prescription sent in to CVS, the CVS that Richard Allen, the now convicted murderer of Libyan Abbey, worked at and was a pharmacy tech at.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

And uh That's gotta be haunting.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

And and and an ex-police officer that lived in Delphi, who I'd met once or twice, went out of their way, left work, picked up my prescription, and brought it to my Airbnb. Wow. That's the kind of people that live in in that town.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

And I just you know weapon.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

I just wanted to point that out because just take away from the trial for a second, but you know, to have people go that far out of their way to um to to care for us essentially a stranger. I mean, it I won't ever forget those things. But then yes, the next morning I was back in court and I was there every day. And the only other time I missed um a second of anything was I did not I was not in the courtroom when the verdict was read, and that was by choice.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

There were only going to be, I think, 10 seats available. I had gotten in, I was number two in line. There was a lot of there was a lot of animosity and things going on at that point at the trial. I personally was so emotionally invested and involved at that time. I knew that the family didn't need me in the room. I felt confident in the outcome, and I knew that I was gonna be with them two seconds after they walked out of the courtroom, which apparently I was on court TV doing. I um, you know, so I did not attend the actual reading of the verdict. And as I found out later, someone actually tossed my chair out of line anyway. So I guess they didn't someone didn't want me in there to begin with.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Wow, that's that's very nice of them.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

And I wasn't about to argue. I was not going to be a part of the problem.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

When media shows up, did and this is I'm asking this because I'm curious, do they have to also do they only let so many media in as well and then they like cap it, or do they have they just get first come, first serve?

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Yes. So um there was a media pool that I believe, um, and I don't I am actually doing this completely without any of my notes or anything. Um, and you know, we're going on a year and a half now, but I believe the media pool is 12 um journalists. And the the judge, Judge Gull, who is is interesting because you know, she made some decisions that I personally questioned or, you know, may have made different choices on, but I'm not a judge. And um she it was she defined um media very specifically, more specifically, even than the Indiana law I mean law. Um, I mean because every state, I guess, has a definition of what they consider media, right? Um and Indiana's is strict. You know, it it's it's no, you can tell it was written a long time ago before certain things like YouTube channels and and and podcasters were were as big of a presence. But there were some larger podcasters and media people that are in new media, it's kind of what we would call it, um, that did apply for, you and you had to apply for a um to be part of the media pool. Got it. And they were all denied. So the only people that were issued media passes were people from traditional major um, you know, outlets, your, you know, your your local television stations, a few local papers, and not everyone from those places could get in every day.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

So they had 12 people and it rotated, and because of the no-camera thing, they also then had to um distinguish and pick one journalist to take all notes.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

And then and then share them with all the other journalists. So what would happen at the breaks, and it was always interesting to see. Well, no, you can't no, no. There was no electronics were allowed in the journal.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Well, I didn't know if they like went outside and did that.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

So not even could you not bring it um an electronic into the courthouse. You I mean you could not bring it into the court, you nothing. You couldn't bring a watch, you couldn't bring anything into the in the everything in your car. So no one had any electronic devices. So people would run out down the stairs, and it and the the court room was on the third story. It's a beautiful marble stair um spiral staircase and a huge rotunda. And um, you would see the journalists running down the stairs and they would run outside and they would they would hurry up and transcribe their handwritten notes, and you'd see a hover of them all over each other, you know, copying the notes. And honestly, you know, they did the very best they can. I don't think anyone was ill-intentioned, but it is how some I think misinformation got out because I think the person designated to take notes for that day may have gotten one little thing wrong. They may have gotten uh, you know, a number wrong, or they may have gotten a small fact wrong. But then that was the only information all of the other journalists were then going off of. And again, that's because there were no cameras in the courtroom. And I'll and I'll give you a side note. My friend Susan Hendricks, um, who all of you know, she got picked to do the and she talked about this publicly, so I so I feel comfortable saying it. She um was um selected one day to be um the um the note taker. I hope. And and and she, you know, was not even actually allowed in the media pool the entire time because she, you know, was no longer with C, you know, CNN or headline news. And the apparently some of the other journalists that were in charge or whatever, who I actually respect and like uh a lot, but um didn't like her note-taking skills and they told her she couldn't do it again.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Wow. She's amazing, and she's the one that like spent the most time with Abby and Libby's family. Like I she would I think out of all the reporters, she would know it the best.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yeah, well, I mean, no knowing knowing knowing the f you know, but you know, her not, you know, knowing the family and knowing the case and knowing the is very different than knowing the trial. You know, a trial is very different. And that's and it's it's interesting when you are so involved and connected to people or a case that you know that you then get this such a almost such a different like a sterileness to to it when it comes to the court, because a court does not have a heart. You know, like a court, you know, you know, like the law, the law does not have yeah, you know, is not uh is not emotion.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

So um so it can be it can be very hard to separate those things sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

You said that um court TV was there. Was Vinnie Politan there or was it just his his teen?

SPEAKER_00 17:56

If I I like Vinnie Politan, I like him, I respect him. Uh I don't remember. I I I'm really bad at I'm really bad at knowing and recognizing people when I see them. Like I've been an introduced to people that I should know who they are.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah, no, how many of all there's so many of them.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

And and it was such a it was such a chaotic, um, exhausting, long, very, very, very there was not a lot of sleep, not a lot of we could not you also could not have food or beverages in the courthouse at all. No water, no food in the courthouse at all. So once those doors opened at 8 a.m., you had nothing until the one break they would have in the morning and then, you know, lunch. So so we were all starving, dehydrated, sleep deprived. And I think we bought the entire state of Indiana out of heated blankets, sleeping bags. I mean, you I've we have pictures, you you can find them online too. I mean, people would I remember seeing I remember seeing people outside out, like homeless people or like unhoused people sleeping on the wheelchair ramp at the courthouse.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

How many people in like an estimate would show up every day? Like just an estimate.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

It would depend on the day, of course. You know, the first I would say week or two, there were more people than there were seats, so people were turned away every day. I there was probably a few days that that, you know, people I think would come and get discouraged by the like because everyone kind of knew how many seats were available. And it did fluctuate sometimes because Abby and Libby, you know, especially Libby has a large family. And so depending on the what the testimony or what was going to be done happening that day, you would have more or less family members in the courtroom. The core of Libby's family was there every single day. The core of Abby's family was there every single day. There were a few instances where Abby's mother left, which I respect and understand. And then there were times that, you know, some of the extended family were there. Libby's birth mother and her, you know, her her children, you know, were there. They took up a large um part of the of the court of the of the gallery. Um so you know, there were usually between like 16 to 20 seats. So I think sometimes when people would show up at, you know, night, one in the morning, um, and see that there were 20 people in line, they'd be like, what's the point? And they'd leave. And there and we did start to kind of have a rhythm as far as the line sitting and stuff like that, like the wonderful kind people. And I and I still like I still talk to some of them because they've just went out of their way to be so incredible. But um they that you know, so we you know, you it'd be okay if you know you're like, hey, I'm gonna run home, you know, like say an hour and a half before the doors open for court. I'm gonna run back to my Airbnb and take a shower. You know, and so you know, like I got, you know, my f like my friends, um, just different friends of mine would be like, okay, that's cool. Yeah. And then when you get back, I'll go take a shower. Stuff like that. I'll go get a coffee. There was a thank gosh, that there was in the little town of Delphi a shell station next that is like a not even a block from the courthouse that is 24 hours and had the kindest two, I think, brothers that that owned it or worked there. And they probably looked at us like we were the craziest people in the world showing up freezing to death at three in the morning, like we were all like, you know, like on drugs or something, you know, shaking, trying to, you know, wait in line to go to the bathroom and buying them out of hand warmers and coffee.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

I love that that that many people gave that to Abby and Libby, though. Like they showed up just to support the family. I mean, you're gonna have some of those people who are just nosy, but the majority, you know, they show up because they want justice for those girls. My my next question was gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

I do want to I want to crowd you, I want to say really quickly. There were there uh one of the reasons it was important for me to be there is because I wanted to make sure that there were that there were enough people like that. Because this is a very divisive case. It still is. There are still a lot of people that feel differently after the verdict. And so not everyone in that Courtroom was there to support Libby and Abby's family. I want to make that very clear. Okay. And I want to make it very clear that there were people in that courtroom that did not show Libby and Abby's family grace, kindness, or any respect.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

It's disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

I will say, though, conversely, that oppositely, that Libby and Abby's family were kind and they were generous and they were welcoming to every single person that was in that courtroom to the point where, and this might be private, but there were times that they showed up outside of the courthouse at four in the morning with pizza. There were times that they showed up and brought McDonald's. There was times they brought homemade cookies and they handed them out. It didn't matter who you were, it didn't matter whether you supported, you know, and this is a small enough community at this point that you pretty much know what what you know what camp people are kind of in. And even some of the YouTube, even some of the podcasters and YouTubers, you could tell after, you know, some of their covers started where their where their um narrative was going and where it was how it was being shaped and how it was being presented was very consistent to the way they wanted it to be, I will say. And that did not matter to Libby and Abby's family. What mattered to them is that they were nice and that they were kind and welcoming to everyone. And so they handed out those sandwiches and cookies to everyone. It did not matter whether you had liked the supported them or not.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

So they're there grieving, getting justice for their daughters and nieces and you know, grandchildren, siblings, and they're out there handing out food and comfort items.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Yes. Wow. And making sure that everyone has what they need.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Wow. I don't even have words for that. See, I never knew that. That's holy shit.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

And they and they didn't do it for you know they didn't do it for attention. You know, they may not have even, you know, I mean, enough people know that they did it, but they took it.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

That's the time that people should usually be taking care of them, and they're more concerned about everybody else. Like that just shows the character that they are.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

And and not only would they take time of their time, but I mean they would they would they would make a point to do it when they knew I mean when they knew like that people had been out there all night. So they'd wait, you know, so that you know, I don't know what time McDon I don't know what time McDonald's closes or if it does, but you know, but I mean to show up at three in the morning with, you know, hundreds of dollars worth of food and or you know, ten pizzas. And that was all in their own their own dime.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

That's just amazing.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

And the the the uh interesting thing to me then also was that the audacity that some people I felt, I mean, just personally, when I watched some of the people take their hands and reach them out to take a sandwich or to take a donut or to take something, just me personally knowing what some of these people had said and felt, I'm like, that takes a different level of disgustingness, in my in my opinion. I apologize.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

I don't want to be negative, but no, I bet that that's something you witnessed and that's disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

To literally take food from someone that you have said horrible, horrible things about that I don't know. That's well, these people are going through the worst hell of their lives.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Well, that that's what was gonna lead me to my next um, you know, when there were moments were there moments with Abby and Libby's parents or, you know, core family when their emotions shifted inside or outside the courtroom, whether it's hope, grief, anger, frustration, or were they pretty, you know, consistent all the way through?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

There were there were I I don't want to speak for them, of course, but there were days that visibly you could tell were incredibly harder than others. There were days that were that were incredibly more frustrating than others. Part of that might just be me knowing their personalities well enough to pick up on those things. I know that uh they sm for the most of the families that were there every day sat pretty much in the same seats. Libby's grandfather, Mike Patty, or um step-grandfather Mike Patty, um, it doesn't matter, stepgrandfather, you know, what her grandfather sat in the aisle in that aisle seat um every day and he took notes. He he took notes. Um I later found out what he was the notes with, you know, the the the the were uh which is which it w was was funny, you know, that he was, you know, kind of saying what, you know, he thought they did well that day and what they hadn't done well, and and then letting the lawyers know. But that's you know, that's the kind of Mike my Mike is. I mean, he is not a f I mean th those families waited long enough for to get that day in the court. They were gonna make sure that that that that their court that their that their day in court was that it was worthwhile, regardless of the outcome.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

I was gonna say too, when I didn't get to meet them at last year's crime con, but I remember being at the Clue Awards and seeing the you know their families accept their crime fighting award at the Clue Awards dinner, and you can just tell looking at them that they're the most humble, down-to-earth, regular, like you said, giving people a line food at three in the morning. Like they have good souls and you could see it. You know, they weren't up there gratified that they won an award, it was they were humbled to get something for fighting for justice, but that it wasn't it wasn't about the award or recognition. It was just giving sub it was more of like people at CrimeCon giving them support for everything they've gone through and letting them have their moment. That that's what it was like for me. And I I saw them and all of them were up there, and it was it was really emotional.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

And Nicholas McClellan, the prosecutor, and Jerry Holman, who are two incredible men, the um prosecutor and the lead detective as well, um, who were both at CrimeCon as well. I'm glad that they got to experience that this year because they deserved to be up there as well. Because, you know, as as much criticism as as people gave the investigation, and I I myself have criticized parts of the investigation throughout the years. Um, I can say with 100% certainty that not a single individual, and there were hundreds of them that worked on that case, not a single one of them did not think about Libby and Abbey 24 hours a day. And Jerry Holman did not and probably will not ever stop thinking about Libby and Abbey. And he said something that in an interview once that that resonated with me, and it's ex uh and I wish it was my own thought because it's exactly how I feel. And it's that he didn't realize it at the time, but that he is a better person because of Libby and Abby. And I 100% am as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

I love that. That's and I I know a lot of you know, interviews I've watched, not just with their case, but others, when the lawyers and the cops and they go all in and it's with them for life. And they always say, like, there's not a day that goes by that I don't think about them. And then usually moving forward, everything they do is because of them.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Whether if it's professional, personal, anything, and they keep pictures of them because it is life-changing.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

When you think most most police officers and most, you know, most most uh lawyers and uh and people in in these investigations, they have families. They have children. And in a town like Delphi, they know the victims. They know the victims' families. They have children or grandchildren that were friends with the victim, you know, or that they might even know the killer. So, you know, it it can be very, it can be very complicated. But um, I don't I mean, I think that that's one reason some of my friends that are police officers, especially, have told me that that, you know, cops will, you know, they have the darkest senses of humor. And uh, I've experienced this with family in the medical industry as well. And I think that it's because they kind of have to. Yeah, just like we do in true crime. There's a there's times where you have to be able to to laugh and take a waste from it. And cops, especially, I think, like to say that they have these really dark senses of humor because they see the darkest things in the world, the darkest, most evil people in the world.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

I was gonna say, uh, Gabby Keto's bonus dad, Jim, was a first responder. Now he's out training first responders, but he said they're taught to just turn things off and they objectify it, but they have all this trauma and tragedy that they're told basically just suck it up and deal with it. You know, you're a man, and you know, they're encouraged to get therapy. And now he's he was able to identify Gabby because he has that experience and he knows how to handle it. But he's still doing you know therapy because of that. All the stuff he went through in the past came up while they were, you know, yes investigating Gabby's case. So he's an advocate for that.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

And you know, and that's and that's important, and not to take in a not to take away from you know the trial of what we're talking about, but you know, that that is something that, you know, while I'm making light of of the fact that they have dirty senses of humor and they can joke about things that are dark, um which is a which is a compartmentalization skill. I don't think that's necessarily the most unhealthy on compartmentalization skill compartmentalization skill skill. But um, I do know that officers and investigators um they you know they have incredibly high self um self-harm rates, they have incredibly high domestic violence rates, they have incredibly high divorce rates. I mean, pretty much all the the the that that industry is at the highest of a lot of the rates you don't want to be in the high end of. Absolutely. So the fact that they, you know, that we live in a culture now where people, especially men, because there is there's definitely a a um still a gender discrepancy as far as what women what is allowed emotionally for women and what is allowed emotionally for men, um at least socially. Um you know, so I'm glad that we're, you know, that that there are people like Jim that can recognize that and help others, men especially, know that it's okay to feel things and you know, you're still a man.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

No, he's doing he's uh and again, I I know this isn't a about Gabby, but he's just a good example of teaching other first responders how to process things like that. So that's important.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

I would say Jerry and I would say Jerry Holman t takes on that role as well, as does um an officer um Dave Vito and Steve Buckley, who were also involved in the in the Delphi um investigation, and actually have their own podcast now called the Detectives Podcast, not to plug them, but they um but they do, and they were at CrimeCon last year, they'll be there this year. So if you're at CrimeCon, stop by and see the detectives booth. And they're fun. They're actually really great guys, really great guys.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Well, I'm sure that I'll meet a lot of people with you this year that I didn't get to meet last year and vice versa. So it was just my first experience. So this year that I can actually like take my time, but I'll definitely stop by their table. So what was it like for you watching the courtroom? The, you know, watching a painful testimony and witnesses statements and just everybody in the courtroom. What was it like sitting there for you? What did you feel? What did you experience?

SPEAKER_00 33:00

It's hard to put into words because you don't nothing can prepare you for that. If you I mean, you can watch a million trials on television, which most of us have. I mean, I've I mean, I think we all, you know, if you're old enough, you've you know, I think we all remember even watching the OJ trial. And and, you know, and I, you know, and I've watched a bazillion trials since. You know, and and I've and I have been guilty in the past of, you know, kind of zoning out and s and, you know, making comments about like, you know, physical features of, you know, a bailiff or, you know, the speech pattern of um of a lawyer, or, you know, the you know, the debt per trial, you know, I think everyone just loved to criticize poor Lane. Was there um was there like But when you're in the courtroom and you're sitting there and and especially in a small court courtroom, and I don't think it matters whether you know the family members or not, but I mean when you're sitting next to or behind the mother of a 14-year-old murdered child, it it you can't put into words what what those feelings are like. And then on the days that that the some of those some of the testimony or some of the exhibits are more difficult to see or or listen to. Uh to sit there and see them yourself, to res react to them and feel the way you feel when you're as you're hearing and seeing things, then to experience what it by watching them makes it even more I can't put it into words, I'm sorry. No, it's it sometimes it's it's not an emotion that you could ever prepare yourself for, and it's not an emotion that you can ever um you ever want to go through again. But it does not compare to the emotions that I can only imagine that the family members feel and go through.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Were you sitting close to Richard Allen or his family?

SPEAKER_00 35:01

There were days there so the way that the um the courtroom is set up is like I said it's very small. And uh it I I don't know why it's funny because um it's my like my OCD or it's like an ism or something, but I um I I always kind of like I identify like the defense always in my mind should be on one side, the prosecution should always be on it on one side, and like the witness box should always be in one place. Yeah. And uh and and and so it kind of threw me because in Delphi, so if you're if you're sitting in the gallery and you're staring at the judge, the defense was on the right hand side of the courtroom next to the jury box, and then the prosecution was on the left hand side, and I don't know why, but in my mind that's flipped. And so you you know, the family members would would pretty much take up most of the the prosecution side. There were most days there was like a row, there's only four rows in the Delphi courtroom, um, with a middle aisle, um, four or five. And then there's a large area in the back where a lot of the uh police officers and the different employees um that work through the investigation investigation, they would congregate back there. Um so they weren't necessarily in seated areas. So yes, I was seated directly behind Libby and Abbey's families on days. I was sitting next to them on days, I was sitting across the aisle from them on days. One day Susan and I couldn't we were we were coming back from lunch and we were the first to they wouldn't let us in because it was full. And uh and uh oh she got in trouble for this, but uh one of Libby's family members grabbed us out of line and brought us up and we sat brought and sat there with the family. Which then I guess caused some some drama.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

That shouldn't though. If they want you in there, that should be their right.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Well, so then so then I guess because there was not necess there was not nearly that many um seats reserved for the defense. His one Richard Richard Allen's family is smaller, and his wife came every um it's almost every day. His mother came almost every day. What was their demeanor like? But you know, that was about it. His stepfather came some. Uh his daughter only came on the day that she testified, and she only came there was separation of witnesses, so they so I understand you couldn't with certain exceptions, like you could could couldn't be in the courtroom before you testified, but she did not come until she testified, and she left right after she testified, and she did not come back. But no, so their demeanor uh so they took up far you know fewer seats, of course. And the defense team, who consisted of three lawyers as well, it was Brad Rosie, uh, Andrew Baldwin, and Jennifer O'Jay, they had two uh investigators or a few investigators that had worked for them that were kind of part of their team. So they took up maybe like a row, and that would include Kathy and Janice, um, which are Rick Rick Allen's mother and wife. But after the day that that that um that we were brought and sat next to some of the family, there were two specific, and I will not say who they were, podcast YouTubers who um who were given designated seats in the defense for from the. Um and so they no longer had to wait in line. So what you know, so what so we kind of like started as a little accidental, like just like, hey, like there and she and we they she would not have brought us up if there had not been seats. They just the bailiffs, you know, had been given a certain amount and that's what they were following. They were doing their job.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

But uh and so she was like, just come up with us, because you know, two of our family members left, so we've got two empty empty seats. So it was nothing malicious, but then, you know, then then you know, for the rest of court, we, you know, there were a few people that got to stroll in read at 8 o'clock in the morning with a full night's rest and sit on um with the defense. Which is fine. I mean, uh I'm not they good for them.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

No, I I think I know, but yeah, we're not gonna discuss who it is, but I think I know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

And and I'm not and I am and I'm not trying to disrespect them, but I'm not even I'm not criticizing them at all. I just I just thought that was an interesting, you know, a tick for tat, you know, it was one of those things. But Kathy Allen, go back to your question. Um, she was incredibly emotional. As you would imagine. Yeah. I mean, it's her husband. People can speculate whether or not she, you know, what she knew, what she didn't know, what she suspected, what she didn't suspect. Same with his mother. I I think that it's undeniable that that there clearly is love there.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

And and I'm not going to discredit or say that that's wrong.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Because someone that you love does something horrendous or awful, means you have to stop loving them, especially if you have codependent personality disorders. Yeah. And and, you know, I mean, so I I, you know, I would never criticize any of her emotional any of the any of her emotions. There were there were one or two days uh I found out that she was not in court, and I found out later that it was because he didn't want her to see the things that were going to be shown. And so whereas Libyan Abbey's family, where they were given, you know, they were, you know, given the heads up as well, so that they could have the choice, as most families are in court, hopefully, if you have a good lawyer, if the prosecutor's good, they will notify the family before things are shown. Um, I have heard and I've seen cases where they are taken by surprise, but you know, Richard John wanted to spare his family from from seeing those scenes, which makes me think he knew what they what they were gonna be seeing. Uh-huh. Um, but Libby and Abby's family sat there and they looked at him. There were tim Libby's uh um Abby's mother, I think there were uh there was I think she there was a time she left the courtroom during maybe some of the some of the harder things. But almost almost every second of that um trial well it wasn't every second of the trial, Libby's grandma and Libby's grandpa and her mom sat and looked. They didn't look away, they looked at everything that was being presented.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

And my heart to this day breaks because I can still hear some of the emotions that they felt. And same same with Kathy Allen. Kathy Allen was visibly, visibly and audibly very emotional at times.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, I I know it's a little emotional. Let you take your breath for a second. I'll interject here. It it reminds me of the Lori Vallow case where Colby um he has to now compartmentalize who his mother was to who she is today. And he said it took a long time to, you know, turn that love off for somebody and put them in two separate boxes. So I imagine that's what Kat Kathy is dealing with. Um, you know, that's her husband, high school sweetheart. I saw her in the documentary that you produced, and you could tell I mean she really has a lot of love for him, and you can't you can't shame somebody for that. And I couldn't imagine Abby and Libby's family sitting there looking at him while they're seeing pictures and exhibits and evidence and being able to restrain themselves to sit there. Because I I don't have kids, but I I couldn't I would be locked up and in contempt because I couldn't sit there and restrain myself. So how they had that strength, I mean, dear lord.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

There was another and there was an element, there was another element to it as well as as far as Richard Allen, in more so than any other defendant I've ever seen in a courtroom, either in person or in on TV, interacted with the gallery. And some described it as I would in a very uncomfortable manner.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

What do you mean he participated in it? What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 42:54

He would physically turn his entire body around in his chair and stare at certain people. And when I say st I mean he has intense eyes. You can just look at him and say, so I'm not gonna say that you know that wasn't uh you know, he just he just does he has intense eyes. But when he and he did it to me, he did it to several other people, he did it to Libyan Abbey's family members, and he wouldn't break eye contact, he doesn't blink. And when he would just stare at you, and people have told me I am lying about this, people have told me that it didn't happen. It happened. There are enough people that were in that courtroom that knew it happened every day that saw it, it made people uncomfortable. It was very creepy. He would then also turn to his wife very routinely, w a mouth words to her, such as, I love you. You c you could normally because you could you know, you you you're sitting behind them, so you can't you can't see what the judge is seeing. You know, and we found out later you know, if you or if you've read any of the court documents or you know anything about the the sentencing um hearing. Or anything like that. You know, we found out later that, you know, he was rolling his eyes at the judge the whole time, mocking her. He apparently in his one of his cell um videos threatened to hurt the judge because there was a day there was an extra there were extra security in the there. Um these are all things you don't know when you're sitting in the courtroom.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

So you're only Yeah, and they don't play this on TV either.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

You're only able to see what you can see from the vantage point. And so when you're sitting, you know, so everyone in the courtroom is pretty much behind the defendant. If you happen to be sitting on this the defendant's side, those are the days you could see him turn and look and mouth to his wife or mom. I love you, or it's gonna be okay or okay, or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

It almost, sorry to interrupt, but it almost, you know, because I've lived through abusive relationships and I I I'm not saying that he abused her. This is just my gathering of what I've seen and watched and how she acts. I feel like she's one of those women that's do-ish, you know, be seen and not heard. And she was devoted to him, but I feel like maybe there was some kind of coercive control.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Well, you know, that's the interesting thing too, is because the if you if you talk to people that knew them, you you would be told the exact opposite. And if you and and there are there are and there were there are clips and and I and I and I've and I've interacted with with her enough times to she is the one that goes out and talks. He's the one that's reserved. He's the one that would that would like to sit in the corner and and not interact with people. She's the bubbly one, and she's the one that would go out and do karaoke and drag him along. And you know, she's he always seemed like a reluctant participant.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

That's all I was, though.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

I mean And they they and you know, they um you know, and this is not, you know, I'm not giving any medical thing away, but I mean they um it was widely um stated that that they have codependent that he had I can't remember the tech the definition of it, um, codependent personality disorder. Something like so I mean, yeah, so they have an absolute dependency on each other. Plus, they've been married since the year after they got out of high school.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Yeah. I mean, they grew up together, lived their lives together, but I I don't know, just from what I've witnessed, like you said, he could stare at you and it's creepy. I mean, I'm not saying he ever abused her, but he could have looked at her that way and just instilled fear in her, you know what I mean? But I could be wrong. He could have treated her like gold, you know.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

And and he maybe and maybe he did treat her gold like gold. Yeah. And maybe she was bubbly and maybe she got to do all the things, but maybe that doesn't mean it wasn't his way of controlling her.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Exactly. There's always different forms.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

If you keep if you keep someone, if you keep the circus cl if not I'm not calling her a circ circus plan, but if you keep the circus plan performing, you might not notice what the acrobat's doing in the background.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Absolutely. Yep. And that is why I think now I I'm still pissed off. I remember when I was reading Susan's book and I texted you and I was like, Are you kidding me? His you know, he called in the day that it happened to basically report himself and then it was stuck in a drawer for five years. And why that that was a question I wanted to ask you personally, and I know all other people have this question. Like, why does anybody know why he reported himself there that day? Was it to try to th make it look like he wasn't guilty? Or was he kind of having those, you know, borderline personalities where he didn't he didn't know he was there kind of deal?

SPEAKER_00 47:20

He went to the trails regularly to the point where he had I mean, one of the exhibits from the home that they found was a little photo album of the bridge. I mean, so he it was not uncommon for him to go there. It was not his daughter has a senior picture and it's the creepiest thing now. If you've seen it, you've seen it. She's sitting on the bridge in her senior picture. And his daughter, he was older. So so this was at this was before the crime. There's a slight resemblance to one of the victims. And I um, you know, so I don't know when he had started that morning, you know, you know, we never you sad thing is, you know, unless he really sits down and I know he's confessed 61 times as of court. I've heard he I've heard there have been several more since that's speculation or hearsay. But uh, you know, we don't know what his motive or his plan was when he got up that morning. What we do know is that he got that he got up, his wife had went to work, he had the day off. It was a Monday. He went to his mother's, who lives in Peru or uh Miami, about um about 45 minutes away from Delphi. And he would do that on a regular regular basis. He was very close to his mother and he had one sister. They were going to go to lunch. He didn't want to do the family lunch thing. Um, and so he decided he was gonna get a six-pack and go um to the trails. So I don't know if he had already, you know, I don't know if he had told his mom he was at he was gonna go to the trails, but regardless, I think said that when she got home that night around five or six o'clock, that he was on the couch.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Mm-hmm. I remember we watching her.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

And that, you know, and that she said something came up on the news and said there's two girls missing Anselphi. And he said, Well, like, what, huh? And he and she said, Well, weren't you out there today? Or he said I was I can't remember the the exact um I think he I think she she somehow already knew that he had been out there. So maybe they they they they normally did talk quite a bit uh throughout the day, although the one cell phone out of the 20 million that they recovered from the house that they did not recover is the one that he had that day.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

That's weird.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Yep. Doesn't remember where that one is or what happened to that. Um but anyway, uh That's suspicious. So when he said he, you know, he said, I will I and so she said, Well, you need to call the police and report it and let them know that you were out there that day. And so at her prompting he did. And he did not call. I don't I don't know if he called the sheriff's department. And then he ended up meeting with uh um a conservation officer who, you know, because at that point the investigation are had already grown. It was um I think he think he met on the 16th or 17th, so two or three days later, um in a parking lot at the of a state of law grocery store. And when he met with the conservation officer, the picture of the person on the bridge, I believe, had just been had been released. Because that was the 15th, and I believe he met with him on the 16th or 17th.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

And it didn't look anything like him at that time. Well, wasn't it a younger?

SPEAKER_00 50:38

If you look at Richard Allen, I mean this is debate people would argue, people argue this to this day. When you look at Richard Allen in 2022, he looked nothing like he looked like the man we saw in court. So if you were to like sit and watch the interrogation videos or the in the um interview videos that he did um back in 2022, and this was five years, even five years after the murder. Um, I I've said I've said this before. The second they started playing the tape of him being interviewed in the first interrogation by Steve Mullins and um and Tony Liggett, his body movement and mannerism and every I my my entire body like went that's Bridge Guy. And that was five years without after. So he'd already changed his appearance a little bit. So if you looked at him in 2017, he did look like Bridge Guy. Told the conservation officer that he was on the bridge at the same time. He said that he saw young girls, meaning the the other witnesses. He said he was dressed like Bridge Guy.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

He admitted to it.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

He then later in 2022 started to alter some of that a little bit. But he not he didn't alter it enough that it that it would take away from it being the truth. Because yes, is there a guy in Indiana that probably doesn't own a pair of blue jeans and a car hard jacket? Maybe not. I I've been to Indiana enough times that I own a car hard now.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

But everything he said matches up to what people saw.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

And he rotted himself out and then it got shoved in a drawer.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Right. You know, and so you know, but you know, he I think because he came forward and he was a local and it's a small town, and you had a conservation officer doing the, you know, taking down the the the it wasn't even an interview, really. It was really just a witness statement. So it was never looked at as anything more than just another local saying, oh hey, I was on the on the trails that day, as were several other people, because it was such a po it was a popular place for locals to go. And I don't think that that conservation officer connected it with him being malicious. One, because Rich Allen's height is very is is the one thing I will see you don't get the sense of from Bridge Guy. He seems short, Richard's short. He's five five five. And it's hard in that video to get a perception of the height of the man walking because one, it's zoomed in, it's it's there's so many elements to it. And people have spent years debating all of that, and with far greater knowledge than I. But I have had officers tell me personally that there were times even when they would go into CVS and that Richard Allen would ask about the case. And how's the investigation going? And one of them especially told me that you know he remembered remembers getting a the hair on the back of his neck stood up, and he immediately brushed it off and said, No, he's too short because the the FBI 5'10.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

While he was working at CVS, was it Abby's mom that went in to get posters made?

SPEAKER_00 53:51

No, it was it was Libby's Aunt Tara.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Libby's aunt, okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

And it was it was for the uh memorial which they held at the at the school gymnasium.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

And he said it was on him, right? Like he gave it to him for free.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

He did.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

Looking back, I wow, I couldn't do that. Our family has so much strength. I mean, at the time she didn't know, but I couldn't imagine knowing now that she stood face to face with him.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

I know. And you had something that it made me think about too, and that that is and that is and because they didn't know him. You know, even a small of a town as Delphi is some I mean, a few of her their family members knew him or knew them. But um Richard Allen was a drinker. I mean I mean, that's just that is what it is. They're they're they like to go to karaoke, they like to play pool, and they like to drink. I mean he he I'm not I don't know about I don't know about Kathy uh as far as drinking, but so a lot of the people that knew him knew him from the bars he would hang out at. And there are only a few bars in Delphi, but I know I've been told personally that, you know, in retros looking back at it, that he was a regular at, you know, the at two or three places. And he had the same routine that he would always do. Every day after he would get off work, he would go to this one bar, and then if it was pool night, he'd go some to this other place after that. You know, and and so on. His pattern changed after the murder.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

Well, that's a red flag, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Because that's what they were for. Yes, but no, but but but it was such a subtle thing.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

Nobody was watching him though.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

No one was watching him, and it was just like, oh well, maybe he's just you know, now he's playing pool at this place, or you know. So he didn't he started not going out as much. And he got started going to like only JC's, which was a different, which is a bar, and um, and and stopped going to the you know, one bar, and you know, one of the family members worked at that bar. Was that one of the reasons, maybe? Or and I'm speculating, but um so some people did know him, but you know, but but I don't think he raised red flags to people. No. I think he was forgettable. I think he was a small, forgettable man.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Do you think do you think a part of him called in because he wanted to see if he can get away with it or just see if he could actually he felt guilty and he wanted to be caught?

SPEAKER_00 56:08

I mean, I only Richard Allen can I can answer the question whether or not he felt guilt. He said he felt guilt, you know, and he said he would like to he said that he would like to apologize to the families of Libyan Abbey. That has yet to happen. Nor do I nor do I think they expect or want it. And he wanted to send them Bibles, I believe, is one of the things he said. Once he found God. Oh, yeah, like I'll do. I think he I think he called in to report that he was there because he had already told his wife he had been there. And so he kind of had to.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

Do you think if he never told her and he never called in that he would they would ever have found out that it was him?

SPEAKER_00 56:47

Maybe not. I I think I think that if Libby had not had the instinct and the gut impulse to pull out her phone and press record and keep it recording as she held it down upside down to her side, as Abby got across to her and they realized they had nowhere to go. I think that if that video did not exist, which I don't think he knew about, I don't think he ever would have been caught.

SPEAKER_01 57:12

I know they said the cell phone was under her, but I read in Susan's book that she wanted to be a crime investigator. So she was like she knew about crime stuff. So it you know, it doesn't surprise me that she w had the instinct to just hit record. Were there any other recordings that they never released, or is that the only one on her phone?

SPEAKER_00 57:31

That was the only one on the that pertained to the to to to anything from the crime. And and and you know, it's not, I think, so much that I mean because if you put yourself, you you yeah, you you live in a small town, you know, your interactions with even strangers typically are not violent or or scary, you know. So yes, I mean if you're on a bridge like that, it it it would be odd that someone is going to come all the way to the end if you're on at the weird cause lots of people kind of go out, walk halfway, walk back. So I mean, it it would be weird that you know you're at the very end and like there's this guy that keeps coming. Once you get to the end of the bridge, there's nowhere to go. So I think that they I think that Libby instinctively picked up on the fact that something was wrong. I don't know if she necessarily understood maybe the gravity of it at the in that moment. I think she very quickly did, um, because he, as we now know, hold a gun out, cocked it, and told them to go down the hill, bringing them no option. Um, but yes, like you said, she did like crime. And she did like um she wanted to be a um an invest a forensic um like uh uh for infringes. Uh-huh. And uh and the most memorable line that anyone will probably ever say in a courtroom, and it's probably the thing that will sit stay with me for the longest from this trial, is in the re uh is in in the closing arguments, prosecutor Nicholas McClellan, he ended because you know the prosecutor does his uh closing statement first, the defense did theirs, which involved some very, very odd medieval torture device pictures, which I'm still trying to wrap my head around. And then and then Nicholas McClellan was able to give his rebuttal, you know, so he had the final word, and he ended his his closing statement with the words, and I'm paraphrasing, Libby always wanted to solve crime, and she did.

SPEAKER_01 59:30

Solved her own.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

And they did, they solved their own. And it's true. And I think, and going back to crime con and the clue awards, I think that the types of people that their families are, I don't think that it would have I don't think getting that up, I don't think they would have felt like that was something they want they deserved or they wanted.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

I'm I'm pretty sure they've not said this to me, but I'm pretty sure they walked up on that stage and they got that award, and they were doing it because that award was Abby or it was Abby's and that award was Libby's. It wasn't theirs, it was Abby and Libby's.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

Yep. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

And just because they weren't they can't be here to take it themselves, that award was theirs.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

Wow, they didn't take a second after that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

And it's and it's and you know, and it's something that it's something that, you know, because of the the age we live in now, ten years before that, someone would not have had the opportunity to solve their own case that way, at least. Wow but yeah. So it's I I I mean I I sound like I'm at a fan club of those or something like that. But I mean they really just the I they are genuinely are in are to have to go through the hell that they've gone through and continue and will continue to forever go hell go through, and to still look at the world the way they do and to be treat people the way that they do is so inspiring. And it shows me, even though I never met Abby or Libby, it shows me exactly who those girls would have been, who they were and who they would have been, and uh what incredible things were stolen and robbed from this world. And they talked about that in the c in the in, you know, and not to keep going, I'm sorry, but you know, they but in her statement, victim impact statement, Libby's grandmother talked about the generational trauma that this crime caused. And it's not something that I think most people think about, but you know, now and you know, we you and I talked about this last time. Yeah, B's family went through the same thing. All of her nieces, all of her nephews, all of her family, anyone for generations to come, are going to wonder, oh, you know, what happened to her? In some other cases, there are crime scene photos that you can find online. There is misinformation that you can find online. There were people that have been falsely accused that are still being falsely accused in Delphi, whose children are have been threatened, whose jobs have been lost. And that doesn't go away just because someone's convicted. Those n those names and those lines that's out there forever.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

Were you I don't know if this ever came out, but uh or I missed it somewhere because it happened so long ago. Were there signs that he was scouting them out, or were they just a random target that day? Were they just random girls he came upon and decided to act out his fantasy, or did he notice them before? Did that ever come out?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:08

Well, I mean he he, you know, Richard Allen is is maintaining his innocence publicly.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:13

Now he is, after he emitted it 60 times.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

Right. And you know, and whether you know, and whether that whether, you know, whatever medical situation, you know, he claims influenced that has is in disp is been disputed by medical experts saying he was completely in his right state of mind. Others have said he was in a psycho a state of psychosis. I don't know he definitely was not in a state of psychosis when he was making it the the slit he slitting your throat uh neck motions to the uh the ba the judge, uh the bailiffs in the holding sale during the trial. Nor was he, you know, was he in any state of uh he was lucid, you know. Every day that we saw him in court, he was lucid and he was not in any state of psychosis, and he continued to confess. So he maintains his innocence. Uh he's never so see he's never given any indication because he's never admitted he was even out that far on the bridge. So you'd have so everyone you ask, you're gonna get a different answer. I personally, and I went so long without speculating or saying as any of my own personal, you know, I think that this is something that he fantasized about, probably more so than we could ever imagine. And I think that he knew the type of victim he was looking for. He knew the type of people that would venture out and and and be out there and go on those trails. He knew he knew who he didn't want because he walked by a few of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

Yeah. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:42

And and one thing, and so I'll be well, I'll finish first. So he so I think that he knew if he ever had the opportunity to be out there, and I think he's I think he stalked that bridge specifically. There's two different trails that that lead down to the one goes over the bri uh to the bridge and one goes down to the water. From either one of those places, you can see really clearly up onto the bridge. And I think you could hide very, very easily in the tree lines dude out there, even in the winter. And um, I think he probably watched that bridge a lot to see if the type of victim he might have been looking for was gonna go out there, because if they went out far enough and no one else was around, then he could get them on the other end of the bridge. And I think he knew that once you you got someone on the other end of that bridge, there was nowhere to go. And he would then have the control that he needed to do what he wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:34

So it was premeditated, but not necessarily on Abby and Libby directly. It was he scoped it out, he knew what he was looking for, and then he just waited until the time was right where everything fell together.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

Why else would you have a gun and a knife on you that And that was my other question?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

I know a lot of people have been asking me, and I'm like, listen, I haven't followed this directly enough, like you have, Aspen, but people ask me, they're like, How how did they trace the gun back to him if a gun wasn't used on them? So how did the bullet end up in the ground if he didn't use it?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

Let me let uh let me I'm just gonna quickly uh let me close my last my last thing too, is that is that you know, if you listen to and all of the all of the core testimony is all public now, so you can't, even though it was not video, you can you can read the transcripts.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

In his own testimony, in his own like interview, which actually you can you can watch that on YouTube. His interviews are on YouTube, he talked about the group of three sister three girls, it was four, that he passed on the trail. He passed them very near the entrance, and he described them in great detail, meaning he paid a lot of attention to them.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

So in that to me, and I'm not a psychologist or forensic anything, but to me that means that he was look he he was looking for the kind of victim he he was looking for. And I think those girls fit that criteria, but there were too many of them. And they were not in the right place. Because why else would you why else would you notice he he even noticed. Notice the like the details that that the two s younger ones looked like sisters, and you know, I don't know. He remembered great dis detail about them. But as far as the gun, so you hear so the when he gets them into the end of the bridge, you hear the gun talk, and you can see the outline of it in his jacket. He pulls it out, he holds it up to them. Um, so you know there's a gun involved. Um, how it was connected to Richard Allen is that about six inches from Libby's foot, in between the bodies, su not even not even not submerged deep or anything like that, but just lodged into the dirt. At the not the bridge, but at the at the actual place where their bodies were found um was an unspent cartridge. Meaning it had been cycled through the gun. I was not a gun person, so I've learned all of this since and I have now done it enough times that I I understand it much, much more. So if you have a sig point to which is what this gun was, you if you have a bullet in the chamber and you cycle it, it will eject the um bullet that is in the chamber by popping it out. Well, a lot of times you you might not remember that you have one in the chamber. A lot of times if you want to that's how you that's how you empty it out of the chamber if you want to make sure it's safe, right? You know, make sure there are no more, no more um bullets in the gun, and then you cycle it out. So it so it shoots out, so it doesn't shoot out, but it ejects that unspent round. There are then extraction marks made on on those cartridges. It's still an arguable enough science as far as whether you can take it to the level of like fingerprinting or DNA. But when you have repetitive tests done by multiple people, and they all come to the conclusion that yes, these extraction marks all came from this specific weapon.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

Well, guns have fingerprints, basically.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:02

Because each gun does make yeah, they do, but not precise enough that that you know, you could take it as a as a, you know, if it's fired, it's way more, it's way more of a science. But if it's unfired, it's still I guess there's still more of an argument there. But this was, I mean, this was tested by multiple people, and even an expert for the defense said he would have come to the same conclusion. Um that I spoke to. So um, you know, I have full I have full faith then, you know, that that that what happened was that, you know, when he got them down to where they eventually were left and killed, he might have cocked the gun again to maybe I mean I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:48

I mean, what we do know is one of those girls had to see what happened to the other one. I know some of the details that I've you know, I mean I do I think I know some things that but I'm not gonna share. But yeah, one of the I mean one of them one of them ha one of them ha had one of them saw what hap what happened to their friend and you know, what if in order for it to make them do what he wanted, he cocked his gun he cocked the gun again. I don't know. And and you know, he forgetting in his friend, you know, in that state of mind that, you know, he'd already had that one in the chamber. I don't think the first thing in your mind would be that that unspent round just hit the dirt. But it meant enough to him that when they did a search warrant of his house, the only bullet that that they found, they they had a little memory box um in like a jewelry box thing above on the dresser. And one of the only items in it was a matching unspent round from it was a different brand, but from this from for the same gun.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:52

Well, that's gonna lead me to the the closing part of this. I know a lot of people you know, first I wanna p I want to give my respects to Abby and Libby and their families and all the strength that they have. But I I know this might have to be another episode as well, but you talk about this case forever, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:07

I mean, it's just it's so complex.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

It's so there's so much. And I know that he app he's appealing the trial and people are now questioning if he if it's an appeal, is there gonna be a new trial, or is is there enough evidence where it could be flipped and that he's found not guilty, or do you think he's he's gonna lose?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

You want my opinion?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

Yeah, I want your opinion. You've witnessed it in person.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:32

No, I I don't who knows. I mean, I'm I mean I I would hate to say there's no chance, but because I don't I don't want to put my I don't want to get my hopes up like that. But nothing I left that I I didn't I didn't I did not go into that courtroom convinced that Rash Allen was guilty. I didn't know. Like I wouldn't I went into that courtroom to support the families and to be there for them no matter who did it. I left court fully, without a doubt, convinced that they arrested the right person for the crime and that the person that killed Libyan Abbey had been sitting in that room with us for those five weeks in the defense in the defendant's chair and was found guilty and convicted of the crime. That's my personal opinion. I felt that the state presented an incredibly strong case. It was circumcircumstantial. I thought the defense did it they they defended their client. I then read the appeal. I I mean I I felt that conviction stands on its own. I don't think there's anything in that appeal that rises to even the the smallest of level of of because one, an appeal is not easy to get. Like it's not an easy burden, and it shouldn't be. But uh but not the the points that they made in that appeal to me were laughable in a way. And these weren't even the same. I I I mean I do I will I know personally that at least one of the original defense attorneys had a very active role in helping to prepare the appellate attorneys. And I'm not criticizing the appellate attorneys. I've never met them. I'm sure they're incredible, professional, intelligent lawyers. Um, I didn't think that it was a very strong appeal, but I don't think anyone could have written a strong appeal for this case because I don't think there is a way to redeem this person.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:22

Okay. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people have been asking me this, so I I wanted to ask you since you've seen the first one in person.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:28

I mean, I sat through every court, you know, other than the day with that eye infection, I sat through every second of testimony. And I don't have a doubt, and I don't there's not a doubt in my mind that he's the killer. And I uh I don't believe that he will ever, ever, ever see an appeal. And I will say though, when I talked to Libby and Abby's family, and I said, you know, I mean, how how's the how does this affect you? I'm like, I mean, you know, you went through hell. You then went through five years of hell not knowing anything. You then went through the arrest of someone, and then you went through two and a half years of waiting for the trial. Then you went through the the hell of the trial, and you got the conviction, and they got their day, and they got to finally be able to say, you know what, they're never gonna come back, but at least we have ans some answers, and we have there's some sort of justice here. But they knew even then that the this was not over. Kathy Allen walked out of the courtroom, and the first time anyone ever heard her say a word in public was that this is not over. And so we know that we knew there would be an appeal. And Libby and Abby's family have told me that if there are a hundred appeals, they'll show up that they will sit through with them, they will sit there every day, and they will do exactly what they've done since the day that Libby and Abby were killed, and that is devote every second of their lives to making sure those girls get whatever justice they can, sadly at the expense of everything else in their lives, because that's one of the things that I have had the blessing to see. I know we need to go, but it you know, and when you're so focused and consumed with with this horrible event, there are so many things in your life that you feel guilty about focusing on. So you just ignore, or you know, and I I'm sure Gabby's I'm sure Gabby's family can tell you this. I know I've heard um some of the Idaho parents talk about this. Stacey Chapin talks about she has two other children, you know, they deserve just as much of her as Ethan did.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

Libby Libby's grandparents who she lived with, they have several other grandchildren. Those grandkids all deserved just as much of their grandma and grandpa as Libby did. And so once they got the conviction, they were finally able to start giving that much to everyone else and to do everything, you know, one, to keep keeping Abby and Libby alive and you know, and and in your memory, but they were able to give the parts of themselves that they hadn't been able to previously. Plus, they were able to actually probably breathe for a minute, even if they knew it was temporary. So if they have to go through this again, they'll go through it again.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:07

I think you brought up Gabby's parents. I remember Jim and Nikki saying, you know, they still have three of three of their kids. I think they have two daughters and a son. I always think there's an extra, like a younger there is a younger daughter, but uh she's grown up so fast that I always think she's younger than what she is. But I know they said that too, you know, they're homeschooled now, but they still had kids they had to be a parent for and show up for. And I couldn't imagine.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:30

That doesn't stop.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:30

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:31

You it's not I mean if you've little kids, you still have to give them breakfast in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:34

Yep. Yep. They did their best. I'm sure Abby and Libby's family did the same thing. You know, you still have to get up every day. But I think and I'm one of those people I don't I'm sorry. No, it's okay. I don't like saying things happen for a reason because nobody wants anything like this to happen. Okay. Nobody wants things bad things to happen for there to be a reason for it. But I feel like sometimes things do happen. And I can't speak on Abby and Libby's family, but maybe their purpose was to change, you know, show people that kids using cell phones, I mean, are smarter than we think they are, okay. And now their family are advocates and they can help other families who are grieving and need help.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:20

And I mean, I have I respect that. I I respect the hell, I mean, uh there's you can't make sense out of these senseless horrible things. But I respect the hell out of the people, these people, and that's the commonality that I think that you and I have in in the fact that and that's one of well, and and and then them is that um is that something I've s that I have had the privilege to witness now and so of you is that that is that the bond that no that no one wants to have, no one wants to be a part of any of this, but that you know, when you have these people that go through the most unimaginable, horrible things of in your life, which I can only imagine would be losing a child or a loved one in a horrific manner, and then you're able to one like Stacy Chate was in and and end up in Washington, D.C. changing laws, or like they just did in um Indianapolis, and they named a bill after Libya and and and Abby, or my my my um niece's roommate who was was killed in college, who changed basically the entire way ride shares are are done, which that's not something you and I have talked about, but we can talk about some other time. But I was, you know, but when uh when Sammy was killed, I you know, it changed how Ubers were done. So uh so yeah, people can create change from horrible things happening, and they do find that bond in each other. And I it's a club that none of them want to be a part of, but I remember um Gabby's motherfucking. There's always new openings.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

Always, and there always is. Nikki had gone to Washington State to support Stacy for Ethan's foundation, and she wrote on a post, like, this isn't the way I want to hang out with somebody, but I'm glad I have her because they it's just an unspoken language that only they understand.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:00

I say that I say that to Libby. I've said I've said that to to Abby to Libby's grandma and and aunt several times. I said, you know, I I as much as I love you guys, then I respect you and I and that Abby's a better person because of Libby and Abby. I I wish that I had never met you. I wish that I had never heard of the town of Delphi. I wish that I never I never even knew any of this you existed because it would mean that Libby was 23 years old right now, probably doing whatever 23-year-old should be doing, which is what all of her friends are doing now. And they would all be alive and living their lives. And I wish that above any good that I've gotten to experience from from having gotten to meet these people. I'm grateful for them, and I'm grateful for for all of what I've learned and what the you know what what I what I've seen them do. But I wish that none of us ever had heard any of their names.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:56

No, I I understand. And I'm I know that they understand what you're what you're getting at. Like it's bittersweet because you you're so thankful that the lives Gabby changed.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:04

But I mean, I would give but wouldn't you give anything in the world who have never known Gabby's name?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:08

Yeah. And I and that's not saying it in a mean way. It's I wish I didn't have to know it the way I did. I wish I would have found out who she was because she became that big social media influencer she wanted to be, not because a man took her life and that's how she ended up famous. I mean, she still got to be what she wanted, but not in the way that she made one great Yeah, she did. And she changed a lot of laws and it saved a lot of lives. So I I know with Abby and Libby to come, I know more things are gonna change and I know that they're gonna help save lives. And if they're on, you know, up there on a cloud and they're gonna help people.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

So And if I'm a better person because of them, and I Jerry Holman says he's a better and better person because of them, I know other I know other people. Every day we hear of things every day we hear of things that happen to people that make us a better that make us, even if they don't make us a better person, they make us aware of what we don't want to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:00

Let's say, I don't know, um, Chris Watts, who don't I want to be? Um Corey Richens, who don't I want to be Lori Vallow?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:08

Alec Murdoch.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:09

Who I who don't I want to yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:12

Scott Peterson.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:13

Or even some of even some of the people in their circles. You're like, uh no, don't want to be like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:19

So yeah. So that makes you a better person.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:22

Yeah. I mean, you can't.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:26

Go home and make your wi your husband a moscott mule without without, you know, um drugs in it.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:34

You know, don't have an aff don don't go on, you know, a thousand dating websites, you know, and you know, then poison your wife.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:41

Well, we could have a whole episode on that. Maybe we should do an episode on what not to be and and what we've learned and what not to be. That that should, we're gonna do that. No, I I think Abby and Libby definitely left their mark on the world. It's a legacy. And if that was their purpose was to help change lives and make people a better person, then I think that's a hell of a legacy to leave behind.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:02

A hell of a price to pay to do it though.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:04

Hell yeah, it is. And I'm just so proud of Libby for being instinctual enough to solve her own case.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:10

And Abby and Abby, whether she did it intentionally or not, she she she you know, she hit she she hid that phone, you know. I don't said I don't know if she I don't I'm not convinced that she you know knew that it was that she was doing it, but um, you know, i I don't because why he would have taken it. Why you know why wouldn't he have taken it if if he knew it was there?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:31

Absolutely. But the the thing is that I got right before we wrap up is that cell phone was under her, so he didn't even see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:37

That's what I'm saying. So she can so so so she helped just as much as as as just as much as Libby helped in recording the video, Abby helped just as much in hiding it, whether she meant to do it or not.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:48

Uh-huh. That's like like like those two. Soul sisters.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:53

Yep. And and they had the opportunity to leave you know, the they had el they had the opportunity to leave each other and they didn't. Or one of them did.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:01

Wow. Yeah, those two.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:03

You can only kill one person at a time.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:05

God, we we're gonna have to we can keep doing more episodes.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:08

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:09

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:10

I want to end on a happier note. Let's end on the happier notes.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:13

I did too, but I want to do say that like I do want to do a um I would love if you can orchestrate it to get somebody from Abby or Libby's family or even Susan Hendricks as somebody that has Miss Susan didn't know them. Somebody that can just tell us about who those girls were, the things that we don't find out on TV, the things we don't read about, because I really want the world to know who Abby and Libby were.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:35

That was something that was really important to me. And McKinney, I don't want to be again, we're going the documentary that you know, and and and I know we got I got a lot got a lot of criticism for allowing Kathy Allen to be to be featured in it. That happened the very, very end of the of it. And I and I'm sorry, it was not the end. We there's no question mark at the end of the title catching their killer. It's catching their killer. But I'm sorry for I think it's a bit hypocritical for anyone to say they would not have also taken that to given her that voice. Because everyone in the world wanted to talk to her. And she just happened to come on and say it. And you know what? That doesn't mean that she would that you have to believe her. I didn't I thought that the defense attorneys in that documentary made themselves look insane, like they were sleeping in their basement, fumbling around, like recording themselves. I they did themselves no favors, in my opinion. And uh and some of the descriptions Kathy Allen gave of her husband and and their relationship, I don't think did him any favors towards his innocence either. So I was very interested to see what she would have to say. But one of my biggest things about doing that documentary was I wanted to talk to her friends, to Libby Nabi's friends, because these were kids and her cousin Josh. These were kids that were 13, 14 at that time. And I wanted to know what their lives, what did the their lives? And you know, and you can't only show so much of any documentary, but I mean, I did these interviews in the course of two days, uh 10, 11 hours, you know, they get you know, so they get cut down. But I mean, to sit there and to really spend the entire day with Libby and Abby's best friends and cousins telling me about their childhood and what those girls were like and what happened to them, how it changed their lives, because that was something that was that was so interesting to me as well. And we can talk about that at a different time. Yeah. Because there's a lot I could say about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:34

And that's what I want would love to do because I think when we, you know, us who followed true crime, we don't do it for the romanticizing of it or sensationalizing. We respect the families and want them to have justice and have a support system. And I think sometimes people get lost in value to them rather than who they were. And it's I I want to know what Abby's favorite color was and you know what she what favorite animal and just little things like that. Like she's a person, she's not a case, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:05

Well, I can because sadly I can tell you per I can tell you firsthand that if you were to tell tell a network that you want to make a you want to spend them to spend millions of dollars to make a documentary so that you could say what a 13-year-old girl's color favorite color was, they would tell you to f off.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:24

But if you tell them you a horrific thing happened to them, they are much more interested.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:32

Well, guess what? We're it's our job to make people interested.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:34

So balance for me, my so I had the option we can go. Wait, I I I had the option of you know being featured in that documentary or working on the production end of it. But because it was ABC News, can't they don't uh if you're a producing or if you're a producer, which means you do have some control, you can't be then the air on on air talent, at least in that division. I don't know how it works when you get to like the level of like Robin Roberts or someone like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:03

But you were the one interviewing them though, right? Like when they're talking to the screen, that was you. Like you can't we can't hear you, but you're the one interviewing. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:11

Yes, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah. Not every single interview, but uh but uh many of them. Yes, that was me. And um, and especially the ones that were the ones that were the most important to me and the hardest ones to it was actually my it was it was the hardest one, hardest ones were Libby's cousin and their and the friends. So that was the hardest day of filming that I it was was the most beautiful day and it was one of the hardest. I don't know. Yeah. Because yeah, anyway, we'll talk about that another time.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:39

Guys, if you haven't tuned in, Aspen helped produce catch is it catch a killer, catching a killer.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:45

Catching catching their catching their killer.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:48

Catching their killer.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:49

The girls on the hybrid.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:51

It's on Hulu, it's a three-part docuseries.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:53

JBC News, yes, and Disney Plus.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:56

Yes, it's really good. Sorry, my I have to edit because my computer just shut off.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:02

Right. And if you know, I will say if you have an opinion on it, if you have an opinion on this case, it probably will not change your opinion one way or another. I don't think it's a good idea. But if you do not know we but it was you know, but I my intent was I wanted to show who Abby and Libby were. And I really feel like I got to portray that in a way it in a way that it had not been done before, especially in episodes one and three. There was so much of Abby and Libby featured and pictures and videos and memories that no one had ever heard. And that was something that that was the only reason I wanted to do it. And of course then all the other stuff has to come with it too. But you know, I think that it was a good documentary, and I don't I don't think that it's gonna change someone's opinion. I don't either. But if you're unfamiliar with the case, I or you or you are undecided. I think it's an absolute fair and balanced document. I do too.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:52

I was gonna say I think it's an unbiased docuseries.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:55

It gives you in a very biased case.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:57

Yeah, yes. And it's not gonna Way your your opinion on it either way, but it's at least going to give you the information that matters. And I think it was beautifully done. And I like how you included everybody. I mean, again, you like you said, Kathy had a voice, and there are two sides to every story. And if she's wholeheartedly believing that her husband did not do it, well, she she's a victim in a in a sense too. Because if if she didn't know this, or even if she found out like when he finally admitted it, you have to think like the trauma that it's causing her as well. You know, and I know people out for her, but and if she did and if she did know it, I wanted to hear it too. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:35

I mean, people what people say, whether you like it or not, can tell a loss. So let them talk.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:40

Yeah, and a lot of times they'll tell you more than what you ask, and then you're like, oh, thanks, thanks for that answer. Thank you. We can talk about this. We can do another one. We can do as many as we want to do. Um, that's the beauty of running our own podcasts. Next time I I want to focus on the light of Abby and Libby and the good things that have come from Abby and Libby. Um, I know they have that that park that was dedicated to them and the stones that people can have and just you know inscribed on the ground and the um Abby Libby's family volunteers and runs the the little concession stands and whatnot. That's the stuff I want to talk about. They do everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:20

They m they do have it all. They do it all. Yep, absolutely. We can talk about whatever you would like.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:24

I'm I think the next episode needs to be literally the positive that that what they've turned their grief into to move forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:32

One thing I wanted to say thank you for is when we the first episode we did, and you know, I I don't do a lot of these interviews because the case has become so personal to me that I, you know, I I don't do YouTube videos, I don't do things, you know, I'll make it my relationship is what it is now. I you know, like I care about the town, I care about the families, I care about the people in the town, and I will do what I can to help. But I respected so much the fact that like when we did that first episode, we did not mention uh the killer's name one time.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:57

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:57

Because we it was the anniversary, the day that we recorded that, and I was very grateful that and so I trusted you enough to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:04

Thank you. Well, thank you for being open and emotional with me. I know it's a vulnerable thing, and it's hard to relive that every day because again, you saw things in the courtroom we didn't, and you have that forever. So, you know, it's it's a whole different situation for you. And I I thank you for trusting me to talk. And I I know we we did mention his name in this one, but I kind of had to, but this was about the trial, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:26

So and I knew that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:27

The last one was because it was their their angel versary, and I wanted to focus on that. But yeah, um, the next one we're not gonna talk about him, we're gonna talk about them and the good and the light that's come.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:37

But as we wrap up, we might have to talk about the appeal, because I mean, because there should be something coming up with that soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:42

We definitely will, and you have the inside to that, so just you know, we'll talk about the updates, but I I just wanna take a moment to acknowledge the weight of everything we talked about. The Delphi case isn't it's not just a headline, guys. It's it's not a just a courtroom transcript. It's a story of two vibrant, loving souls, Abby and Libby, whose lives were stolen and of the families who continue to show their unimaginable strength and their face of grief, delays, and uncertainty. Aspen, thank you again for bringing us into the courtroom with you, for sharing what you witnessed and for reminding us that behind every legal filing and every appeal, there are real people carrying the impact every single day. Your perspective matters, and your respect for the families shines through in every word, every time I talk to you. You have nothing but amazing things to say, and I cannot wait to meet Libby and Abby's family in person. Um, I didn't get to last year, but I I just want to hug them. To everyone listening, cases like this require patience, compassion, and a commitment to truth. Justice is not always fast, it's not always simple, and it's always worth fighting for. And as long as this case continues to move, we will continue to talk about Abby and Libby, and we're gonna honor them and stand with the people who love them. And I I hope Aspen comes back. And if you guys want good information about Abby and Libby, stay tuned for part three. If you have good questions you want to know about Abby and Libby and the types of girls they were, send them my way so Aspen and I can get those for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:19

I love a Q QA.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:21

Okay, we can maybe that maybe that's one where we can actually go live. If I can stream it through and learn the StreamYard or go through Facebook or something and have a live audience. That's something I have to work towards, though. I have to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:37

However you want however you would like to. But no, I yeah, I I agree with you. It does take a while. And I can I say really quickly, yeah. You you even in a case like Delphi or a case that is divisive or that people have different opinions on, it's very possible to have differing opinions. Uh but uh it shouldn't affect your compassion towards the victims or the family members of the victims. I mean, unless you're literally saying the family members of the victim is the one that killed the person. You it should not change uh the amount of empathy you feel for a human being going through absolute hell. Absolutely not. Even if you think a different person did it. Like for really people that I'm out there seeing Brian Koberger is innocent. That shouldn't change the way you feel about Christy and Steve Gonzalo Gonzalez or you know, exactly any of the parents or any of the siblings or any of the victims. You should have just as much sympathy and empathy for them.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:34

I can't agree more. I mean, I I've seen anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:37

Yeah, maybe don't do TikTok dances, you know, on your, you know, as when you're a lifetime actor. Sorry, I'm done.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:43

No, no, that's a good light to the end of the story.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:46

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:46

I mean people do stupid shit online. I mean, they really is there's no respect, there's no empathy anymore. And it it's I don't know. But again, that could be a whole nother episode we do, but all right. This has been part two of my interview with Aspen Connor, and yes, we will be back for more. We're gonna be traveling a little bit together in May. We're going to Vegas to Crime Con. July, Aspen and I are both volunteering, and I'm sponsoring the third annual Gabby Petito fundraiser. They're doing a golf tournament at the Willow Grove. Or wait, Willow. Oh god, sorry. It's been a long day. Hello! I can't remember. I'm sorry. Oh my god. It's in Mount Sinai, New York, and it's at a golf course.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:28

It's Willow Creek, Willow Creek Golf Golf and Cookie Club.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:32

I am sorry to Gabby's parents.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:34

In Mount Sinai, New York.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:36

I'm sponsoring this too.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:37

It's July 17th. July 17th.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:41

Willow Creek Golf and Country Club that I was there last year, and it's gorgeous. I mean, I it's probably the nicest golf club golf course and country club I've ever seen. Mount Sinai, New York. It's right, it's about I want to say it's about five miles out.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:54

Did I say I was volunteering? I thought I was just drinking and golfing.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:57

I mean, that's according to Joe Petito, that's part of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:01

I'm just I'm just I'm kidding. I'm I'm I'm I'm so I'm so I feel I'm so honored to have met them and I I'm I admire them. I I I have I have a little bit of a crush on on don't tell anyone but on on Nikki.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:14

Aww.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:15

And uh and and a little a little a little crush on Joe. But I but it but but you know No, I'm not laughing. Nothing again, nothing against Tara or Jen.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:24

No. No, I mean we've talked about this, and I love all of them. They all have their own unique personalities, and we vibe with who we vibe with, right? So we'll do a podcast after that experience too, because I want your take on it. Last year, my friend Nick interviewed me up there. He started his own podcast, and he's like, you need to do this. And we were talking about the day and domestic violence, and he had it set up. I'm not sure if he's coming back or not, but if I knew how to set this all up, I mean I could, but I I'd have to talk to Nikki to see.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:55

And you'll take away from the event either, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:57

I I want to be in the in the moment, but um he was hearing. No, I don't remember seeing her.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:04

Do yeah, my my friend Susan Lauren and Grayson were there last year.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:07

Susan Mena?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:08

No, Susan Hendrix.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:09

Susan Hendrix. I don't remember seeing her at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:12

Yeah. She was yeah, she was there with um with with um with Hidden.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:16

I didn't see them at all when I was with Nikki and Tara all day.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:19

I don't know. That's awesome. You weren't make you weren't in the Delphi world yet, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:23

There was only a few hundred people there, but yeah, we're gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:27

You just saw you just saw Heather Lockley.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:28

I did. I did see Heather Lockley earlier.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:30

I can't promise I won't be wearing my Amanda t-shirt from Merrill Murrow's place. I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:35

Tara's a big fan of hers, and her and Joe went out to California and actually stayed at her house, so that's close.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:41

Now that she she'll listen to this and now she won't come this year.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:44

Um no, she's really um into the foundation because she said her daughter reminds her of Gabby, and Heather just threw herself into it and is a big sponsor. And um, we we'll get on some golf carts if there's any of that's why I want to get there early, because last year we got there at like 10 a.m. and everybody was there at seven, and people got golf carts to hang out in all day. And me and my friend V didn't get on one until later in the afternoon. And we just rode around the golf course. People I mean, Joe Joe tells you he's like, open bar, open bar on the golf cart.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:15

I will ship my I will ship ours out.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:17

He was doing fireball shots at 10 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:20

So we have a we have a you know, because we're we we we're on the lake in a golf course. We have golf course, and yeah, they're all pimped out here.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:26

Wow. Yeah, I mean this one, this one I've it was just an experience I've never seen. And everybody came together for a good cause, and then there was a band afterwards and food, and you know, Joe said, Oh, are you gonna get you know are you gonna keep drinking? And I'm like, I can't. We got I gotta ride back to Wilkes Bear. And he's like, Oh, you can't party. Like, he he just wants basically us to show up, volunteer. Everybody come together, have a good time. It's not gonna be a somber experience. He wants everybody to have a lot of time.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:51

So for awareness, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:53

And um his biggest thing he wants to see every year is debauchery on the golf course. He wants to see a golf cart go up in flames or like go into the pond. Like he's he just wants that every year. And I'm like, I can make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:04

That's why they're not sending Joe to Washington, DC. I'm kidding. But um, I actually I I'm actually missing Nikki um before that because you know they do so much incredible work. And again, I'm I know we're trying to close so much on college campuses about domestic violence and about about about raising awareness about how I mean males and females, but especially females, about how so many people can see themselves have seen themselves in Gabby. You your you you you included. And um, I know that um I'm gonna Nikki is gonna be in in a the same city I'm gonna be in at the same time in June when and so if I if I can make it work, I I don't I don't know how these those events work, but I need to reach out to her and s and and and and see if I can come.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:49

Absolutely. I'm sure she'll she'll figure that out. Um I love Nikki so much. I love all of them. But yeah, we'll we'll be there July 17th, and then in October we're attending crime stereo in Boston, and I'll have a table. It's a smaller crime event, you know. There's no big headliners, but it's for people who just want to get together and support crime and you'll be cute by then.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:12

I mean you'll be you'll be enormous by then.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:14

You'll be yeah, right. No, thank you though.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:17

You know, you'll you'll you'll be you'll hit your million um subscriber mark. Which congratulations on um on your um the milestone that you did just hit with downloads.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:26

Well yeah, I just hit 2,500 downloads. I just won best social media page for true crime with TIFF client in my area.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:31

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:32

Thank you. I it's it's something again. Somebody I posted online last week, somebody said, Well, it's ridiculous that you have a podcast and don't try to make money off it. And I said, Well, it's ridiculous to try to make money off someone's tragedy and trauma. Like, I don't do it to become famous, I don't do it to get likes. I do it because I enjoy talking about this stuff and I enjoy meeting the families and trying to help and be a voice and be an advocate. It's not about how many likes and followers. You know what? I have like a few hundred likes on my Facebook page, and people say, Oh, I see it. Just because I don't engage with it doesn't mean shit. People see it, and I'm not gonna not do something just because I'm not making money on it. Like I don't want it to be work.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:14

And that for me, and that was something for me, I, you know, when I went to the Delphi trial, I, you know, I, you know, because I did I do have a YouTube channel, I don't do much on it. Yeah, um, you know, and I and I did bec you know I am in production now. But my intent in going to that trial was to support the family, to be to be in that courtroom to support the families. And so I made a very conscious decision that I was not going there to cover the trial. That's nothing against the people that did go to cover the trial that were there that were there to make money to make money off of it. But you know, but there were some, you know, I mean I met some very some wonderful people that I'm still friends with today that were there to cover the trial and do daily recaps of the trial. And um and I'm thankful for that because they run cameras in the courtroom. So, you know, there were some people there that also did daily recaps that were giving misinformation, but neither here nor there. So, you know, there's nothing wrong with making money.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:11

Oh, no, I don't I don't mean it like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:15

You know, journalists make money off of saying of off of reporting horrible events every single day of the the, you know, right now. Yeah, and giving out wrong information. Hundreds of people on the news right now on a million channels talking about probably bombs going off or car accidents or mass shootings or something horrible happening, and they're all making money telling those stories. I'm not again like I mean they're glorifying it.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:41

I'm not trying to become this famous, like I'm not trying to be Nancy Grace.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:45

I mean, I would love to be, because I love everything about her, but uh that's not my still your role, no one doing Nancy, no one doing Nancy Grace, still your role.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:55

I love her so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:57

I'm I'm pull I'm holding a pin right now, just like her.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:00

I love her so much, and I would aspire to be her.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:04

Joe Scott Morgan, I'm gonna go to you right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:07

I love Joe Scott Morgan. But that's not my that's not why I do it. I do it because I want pe I want to help people. That's and give people an inside that's it. And I I don't need to make money off of it. It's not that's not what I'm doing this for. And if it came later, I mean, cool. Then I would probably give some of it to Gabby Petito Foundation or help the park with Abby and Libby. Like I'm not this is not what it's about, but I do appreciate you getting on here. And again, guys, we'll be together in Vegas. Maybe we'll do a live together. That would be fun. And then we'll do a podcast with Gabby Petito's fundraiser. We'll do another one with for Abby and Libby, and then we'll be in October, we'll be in Boston. Aspen and I are trying to go see Salem. We've never been, so I'm going to circle.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:50

You can come if you want. I'm going.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:52

Hey, if that event ends up being a bust because it's their first one, I will just pack up and we're going. We're just gonna go to Salem in Boston. So that that's their first one. I don't know what I'm expecting walking in there, so I don't know. But anyway, we'll wrap this up. We're at the two-hour mark exactly. So um, thank you, Aspen. Thank you so much. And anybody, again, if you guys want to know anything good about Abby and Libby, send questions our way and we'll have Aspen back on.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:17

And anytime, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:18

Just keep Abby and Libby and your family.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:20

You can always put you can always give out my email address. I'm always available to answer questions or whatever if someone wants to reach out or you know, has a story, even that, you know, like I keep everything confidential and private too. I'm I'm not here to capitalize off things. No, you know, and for every hundred things that some I'm told, you know, I might you know I'll do whatever I can to help. But I mean I'm not gonna glore I'm not gonna try to like get attention off attention.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:46

No, and like there's a lot of things I know from Gabby's parents that I don't talk about. It's no one's business. What they tell me is what they tell me if they want people to know that's their story to tell, not mine.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:54

So there have been several cases that I you know, if I if I can help, I will pass on to the information to people that you know will make it public if they if that's what the people want.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:04

Yes, yeah. Um, if we have some pretty simple emails, guys, if you want to email us. I'm true crime tiffklein at gmail, and Aspen is true crime aspen at Gmail. So we're we're pretty easy to find. Um you want to shoot us some emails or send us some beat.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:19

I apologize to the entire city of of Aspen, Colorado, if they wanted to at some point start that you that that email account, but I took it.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:26

Funny story, I met Aspen in Colorado. So I said, What's your name? We were sitting outside. It was like the it was I think we, yeah, we met the night we were outside with Joe and Candace, but we didn't we talked the next day after everybody left, and we we were outside in the daylight, and we were sitting at the fire pit, and I'm like, What's your name again? And um, he's like, Aspen, and I'm like, I thought he was joking because I was in cal Colorado, and the movie Dumb and Dumber just goes through through my head, and I wanted to say California beautiful, and I refrained because I didn't know you very well, but I remember you specifically saying, No, I wasn't, I wasn't named after this the state or city or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:02

No, I've never been there. I've never been to Aspen. But you it's funny, yet because 24 hours ago, Brett from the Prosecutors podcast said re-he related the he just relayed the exact same story about thinking my name was fake when he met me in Colorado.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:15

Yeah. Yeah, I thought you were busting my balls. I was like, wait, I know I talked to him last night. I don't remember him telling me what his name was, but I'm just gonna start telling people that it's uh the you know that I'm um I think it's funny that we both like had no intention of meeting each other and both ended up at the same fire pit two days in a row with each other. Like it was like meant to be. But I can't wait to fire.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:36

And we were with a we were with a good group of people too.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:38

God, we had so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:39

We were with Candace um Cooley and Joe Petito and some other people and yeah, there was a moment at that fire pit that I was like, I don't feel like I deserve to be sitting in and around these people because I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:51

I was like, is this real life?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:53

Well, not that you know, I wasn't like like fanning or anything. I was just I was like, I was like, I was like, okay, they are all have shared, they all have a shared experience that I like I'm kind of an outlier here.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:02

Yeah, that I felt like that too, kind of, but because I'd already met Joe, I didn't feel like I was out of place, but it still felt, I don't know, from an outside looking in, people would think that, oh, like, oh cool, they're sitting with them. But it's like if you if you actually know them, yeah, it's it's cool, they're good people, but you also know the dark side, the trauma, and it's hard to you want to feel sympathy, but at the same time when they're trying to have fun, you you want to keep up with their energy kind of deal. And Joe's always about having a good time. So hopefully we will find him at the smoker's circle.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:31

Really? He cried it's really he it's really he got emotional and and he cried and he he said he cried on my shoulder. No.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:38

I can see Nikki doing that. I think about the four for a second, but now I'm gonna go. We're gonna see them in a few weeks. Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:48

U thank god they're able, thank God that you know I'm sure there have been countless days in all of their lives that they have not been able to get out of bed, let alone smile.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:58

They turn it off, turn it on.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:00

So and I'm sure there are still days that they won't be able to get out of bed or can't smile. But if for you know, three days they can go on they can go and be around some people and be able to talk about someone they loved.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:12

I will tell everybody the the best way to warm up to Nikki is get her Taco Bell. She loves Taco Bell.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:20

Same, same. I like I like Taco Bell and I also like money.

unknown 1:47:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:25

Yes. Well, I do too. So all right, we're gonna wrap this up for good now. Thank you again. We're gonna do many more of these. So I'm gonna try to have this up for tomorrow. If not, it will be on for Thursday. But yeah, thank you again, Aspen. It's always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:40

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:40

You're welcome. And I'm too.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:42

Even though I'm not number 13.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:44

I'm sorry. Aspen and I have this bad habit of saying, let's do one, and then we schedule it and then we reschedule it 10 times, which it's more on me because my schedule's I'm I'm bad at commitment to things. If I say maybe or I'll be there, it's usually I'm not going, or oh, let's do this Monday, and then Monday comes when like I don't want to do this today.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:01

Well, my favorite numbers and my favorite number is 13. And so when I mine's 31. So when you you so when I was gonna be episode 13 and then you skipped me.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:10

I know. I did Titanic.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:12

For Titanic, you skipped me for the Titanic. Guess which one of you, guess which one of us is not gonna let you down?

SPEAKER_01 1:48:17

No, right? I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:19

Sorry. All right, let's end. I'm done.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:20

Oh, that's a good one. I'm glad we're laughing. But again, guys, this is true crime with Tiv Klein and Asbin Connor giving criminals the disrespect they deserve.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:30

Absolutely. Thank you, everyone.