Scott Peterson: The New Evidence Part 2 Review with Aspen Conner

NEW EPISODE True Crime with Tiff Kline
🎙️ SCOTT PETERSON: THE NEW EVIDENCE 
🎙️ PART 2 REVIEW WITH Aspen Conner
🎙️ Aspen and I sit down and watch Part 1 of the new 2 part docuseries on AE "Scott Peterson The New Evidence" 
🎙️ Join us while we witness  Chris Pixley and Ninette Toosby break down the so called new evidence with LA Innocence Project to prove Scott Peterson Innocent. 
🎙️ What new evidence will we discover? 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Hi guys, Aspen and I are back with part two of the Scott Peterson docuseries, The New Evidence. Just a recap, we didn't see much new evidence in part one. Um, two little things stood out to me, but I don't think they have any relevance on proving his innocence. And you can go back to part one to see what I'm talking about, but um, we're gonna dive in. Now, we haven't watched this yet, so you what you see is our first time watching it too. So we have no idea what we're about to witness. But before I jump in, I know in part one I was talking about this book. Um, it's called For Lacey. Lacey's mom, Sharon, wrote this book, and it's one of the best books I ever read, and it's more about her perspective and a mother's story of love, loss, and justice. And it's what goes on behind the scenes with the victim's family that you don't get to see in the media, the newspaper, um, the courtroom, or anything like that. So I highly recommend reading this because it does open your eyes to a lot more that's going on this documentary and many other documentaries that have come out for the past 20 years, they leave out that information. And Sharon obviously wanted this out.

SPEAKER_11 1:09

So what year did she write it?

SPEAKER_05 1:11

Uh 2000. 2006.

SPEAKER_11 1:17

Okay. I'm just just curious I was just curious how up to date it was.

SPEAKER_05 1:20

So this book is 20 years old, but she even puts in like um pictures of Lacey, she puts in her journal entries and gives us an idea of who Lacey was, not just a pregnant mother who got murdered. This book will tell you how Lacey who she was in school. She was a cheerleader, she loved gardening, she loved sunflowers, um, she she went to school for herbology, I believe. Um to be a mom.

SPEAKER_11 1:50

And uh she was really, really close to her um like she had a whole group of high school female friends that she like stayed very, very close to until her.

SPEAKER_05 2:01

Yeah, they still talked to Sharon. They just did a documentary on Netflix with Sharon. Um but this also goes into her prior relationship before Scott and how that guy was controlling um when she met Scott and how he wind and guinded Sharon as well. Um how her family adored him, and it also goes into a little bit about how her brother felt about all this, her sister, her dads, because she has her father and her stepdad. And um it's just a really good book to get more of an insight on the on Lacey and who she was and her family. So I highly recommend it.

SPEAKER_11 2:41

Isn't it interesting as well how we could probably do an entire episode on on how somehow people that are that giving and and you know givers in the world are become such targets for narcissistic narcissistic abusive douches. I mean I I don't know I don't know a better way to say it, you know. But um it's like I'm like, is there a flag on our forehead that we just don't know about?

SPEAKER_05 3:11

That makes us like I remember seeing Lacey obviously when she went missing, and I thought she had the most beautiful smile. And I never wanted kids, but ever I this case happened when I was in eighth and grade. No, I was in ninth grade, who happened the fall of my freshman year. And I said if I ever have a little girl I'm gonna name her Lacey, because I loved the name after Lacey Peterson, and I just thought she was so gorgeous. Um I'm 38 now, I'm not having kids, and if I did, I would have named her Lacey. And I have just I just fell in I just fell in love with her and I don't know why, but she had this you could tell she just wanted to love somebody and be loved back, which who doesn't? And like you just said, we're targeting um she was twenty twenty-seven or twenty-eight.

SPEAKER_11 4:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 4:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 4:03

Okay, so they were older than me, yeah, because I I would have been twenty one in well twenty in and in December of two thousand two. But um, yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_05 4:14

I just wanted to get a little insight on Lacey, not just Scott, because she was she's got online you know, because you know it's a hell that no parent deserves to go through.

SPEAKER_11 4:25

I know we need to get into the episode, but you know, it's like I I have this entire list of women, women especially, because women I feel like hold families together. I feel women are the backbone of society. I feel like if it weren't for women, the whole world would have fallen apart forever ago. Um, which is partly I think why men try to keep such a control on it. But anyway, that's my personal opinion. Um, but I will say that um Sharon um is among uh a very elite list in my head of women that I admire for going through hell and not letting it stop as hard as it must be for her to continue to go up every day and to advocate for what happened to her child.

SPEAKER_05 5:08

And she does talk about that in this book because there's there's times in her she says how she just couldn't get out of bed for days, she couldn't get off the floor. Like this is I really highly suggest this book.

SPEAKER_11 5:16

No. Probably still, I mean that's something.

SPEAKER_05 5:20

I've heard that from She said Lacey was her best friend.

SPEAKER_11 5:24

I've heard that from a lot of um of you know um murder victims' f parents years, years after they go through with this, you know, some of the some some that we both know, um, some that I'm very close to. I mean they you know, they they may they might have a brave face, but you don't see the moments that they can't get out of bed even years later.

SPEAKER_07 5:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_11 5:45

Stacey Chapman has talked about that from w with about Ethan, you know, and you know I know. I didn't know if Nikki had talked about it publicly, but I know I knew Nikki had told me that too as well. You know, there's days they just can't. And that's okay.

unknown 5:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 5:59

So you know, people don't really see that people don't see, you know, that side that you know it doesn't it doesn't end. Grief never ends. Especially when you don't have answers. Or you don't have all the answers.

SPEAKER_05 6:12

You don't have all the answers. Yep, I agree. Um so we're we're gonna dive into part two and we're gonna see what new evidence they have to prove us wrong and that Scott is innocent. I'm gonna keep an open mind on this episode. You're probably gonna see some facial expressions, and you might hear me talking about it.

SPEAKER_11 6:32

So I'm gonna take a big blocker and just sit.

SPEAKER_05 6:36

Alright, here we go. Are you ready for this?

SPEAKER_14 6:41

We've already retraced Scott's footsteps on the day of Lacey's disappearance.

SPEAKER_19 6:46

It's a really risky endeavor to come down here with a body.

SPEAKER_14 6:49

We examined critical evidence that was ignored and mishandled by the Modesto PD.

SPEAKER_19 6:55

To take a gun without consent is not legal practice.

SPEAKER_14 7:00

We found major holes in the prosecution's use of title science thanks to new developments in hydrodynamic model.

SPEAKER_09 7:07

The bodies couldn't have ended up where they were found.

SPEAKER_14 7:10

And we reevaluated eyewitness accounts saying that Lacey walked her dog after the prosecution says that Scott Peterson had already killed her. The consistency is pretty remarkable. So Scott didn't kill Lacey. Who did?

SPEAKER_19 7:25

If you see a mattress in the back of a van with blood, the inference if something bad happened.

SPEAKER_14 7:31

There is so much investigation that needed to be done.

SPEAKER_19 7:34

Dog sent evidence was a really big red flag.

SPEAKER_21 7:37

DeVore was the walking, talking incarnation of junk science.

SPEAKER_11 8:22

Did you see how young she looked? I mean, she's still looking up front.

SPEAKER_15 8:35

This modesto neighborhood has been searched by air and on horseback.

SPEAKER_14 8:42

This is the Peterson home. Directly across the street is the Medina House. The Medinas were the neighbors of Lacey and Scott Peterson. They went out of town for Christmas to Los Angeles to visit family on December 24th, the same day that Lacey Peterson went missing. When they returned home, they found that their home had been one less neighbor Scott car.

SPEAKER_18 9:11

His name is Stephen Wayne Todd. You see, Todd, along with his partner, are accused of breaking into this home across from the Petersons around the time Lacey was reported missing.

SPEAKER_12 9:31

We're confident they are the ones that committed the burglary.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

The Medinas left to go on vacation on December 24th, around 10:30 a.m. Clearly at that point, Scott had already departed his home. So if Lacey in any way has any connection with the burglary that's going on at the Medina's house, she's alive and Scott couldn't have killed her. In the initial criminal complaint, the Modesto Police Department said that the burglary occurred at some point between December 24th and December 26th.

SPEAKER_14 10:35

The police justification for everything they did with respect to the Medina burglary was that it happened on December 26th, two days after Lacey Peterson went missing. The problem with that story is the fact that when Lacey Peterson went missing, it immediately became huge news.

SPEAKER_21 11:48

Because if it had happened on the 24th, it's the definition of reasonable doubt.

SPEAKER_09 11:54

The media siege goes on as police continue to search the home of the missing Lacey Peterson. She went on her walk, and the neighbor found the dog at 10:30.

SPEAKER_14 12:02

The Medina burglary became a thing. The Los Angeles Innocence Project believes that the burglary of the Medina home happened on December 24th, the same day that Lacey Peterson went messy. In recent years, new witnesses have come forward connecting Lacey's disappearance with the burglars in the airport district. The fact that the LAIP has found nine new witnesses, identified only by their initials to protect their identities, who connect Lacey Peterson's disappearance to the burglars only further reinforces the fact that the police should have been investigating the burglary as related to Lacey's disappearance. It was very clear to most people discussing it that it was an alternate theory. And the only thing that the state could say about it is it had nothing to do with the crime that happened on December 26th.

SPEAKER_08 12:57

And for those of us that did this for a living, I mean it makes for pretty good T T V drama. I mean, I could see putting it in a fiction show, but in real life, it just seemed like such an enormous stretch.

SPEAKER_14 13:09

As a former LAPD detective, do you have a problem with the idea of this being a random crime, that there's no relationship between Lacey Peterson and the burglars who burgled the Medina home?

SPEAKER_19 13:23

Coincidences happen. But with that said, based on the proximity where the Peterson property is and where the Medina property is, and the fact that you have a woman that goes missing, to not consider that there might be a correlation, I feel is investigatively negligent. As an investigator, you want to throw in the biggest net possible, right? And so this is part of the net. I believe that the reason why they were dismissive or ignored the Medina burglary is that they felt at that time reasonably sure that they already knew what had happened.

SPEAKER_14 14:03

The confirmation bias and television are so powerful that they essentially overwhelm people's volition. Almost immediately after Lacey Peterson's disappearance, two of her neighbors reported to police that they believed the day before, December 23rd, that their homes were being cased by burglars. This home, right here on the corner, just a few houses down from the Petersons and the Medinas, the LAIP says that the owners, the Yorkitas, said that they had a visitor knock on their door that evening with some story about a missing dog. They didn't believe the story. They thought the man was suspicious. And there's another neighbor just down the street that also had the same kind of visit. One of the two witnesses that reported to police, they believed their home was being cased by burglars the day before Lacey's disappearance was, in fact, a judge.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Also on the stand today, Ricardo Cardova, a neighbor of the Petersons, and currently a superior court judge.

SPEAKER_14 15:07

Judges know how criminal justice works. They know the importance of making a report early in the process, so I find it to be highly credible.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

He testified that a suspicious person went door to door in that neighborhood asking for money the night before Lacey Peterson disappeared.

SPEAKER_19 15:24

Maybe these are the same guys that ultimately chose the Medina home. Maybe they're trying to figure out who's going to be around for the holidays, who's not.

SPEAKER_14 15:34

I mean, yeah, have they seen witnesses that saw Lacey Peterson confront the burglars in front of the Medina home. But we know that Lacey was a member of the neighborhood watch, and she was known as being very vigilant.

SPEAKER_15 15:47

And Lacey was just the type that if she saw something happening to her neighbor, she would go to help without thinking of her own safety.

SPEAKER_21 15:57

There were people that said if you knew Lacey, you would know that if there was somebody untoward in the neighborhood, she would have let them have it.

SPEAKER_14 16:07

But if the Medina home was burglarized the same day Lacine went missing, what that means is there's an entirely plausible explanation for her disappearance that has nothing to do with Scott Peterson.

SPEAKER_05 16:23

All right. So three things I picked out. They just kind of answered that, but I was thinking why would an eight-month eight-month pregnant woman confront burglars putting herself at risk?

SPEAKER_11 16:39

Yeah, I didn't get that. Give them hell.

SPEAKER_05 16:41

Yeah, but they said that she was an um big member of the neighborhood watch and that yeah, she'd give them hell. I don't think she would put herself in that position. I didn't know Lacey. I would like to know what Sharon's thought on that would be. You know, and it could be in the book, and I just don't remember, but um I don't think she would put herself at risk at eight months pregnant. I also think that now I I'm going to say this, even though I'm I'm still on board that Scott is guilty. That timeline that they said with the burglars happening on the 26th, but it actually happened on the 24th, but they said that it would scroll up the confirmation narrative. That kind of struck me because if it happened on the 26th, just like Mark Eragos just said, and God he's right. The news reporters would have seen them lugging, lugging them out, um, lugging stuff out of the house in a big safe. They would have seen um them getting into the van, but apparently nobody saw anything. So I have to agree with Mark on this one that on the 20th, if it actually happened on the 24th, but there's they changed the date instead of the 26th. I'm gonna go ahead and say, okay, that I could see happening.

SPEAKER_11 18:04

You know, I can see, you know, okay, so it is possible that it happened on the 26th. But, you know, I have yet to ever see, I've always heard, you know, the the news cameras were out there. Yes, they were. The news cameras were out there on the 26th. Were they out there by 10 a.m. on the 26th? Or whenever this burglary happened? Did it happen in the middle of the night? We don't know we don't know what time on the 26th the burglary allegedly happened.

SPEAKER_05 18:30

So if it was three in the morning, it's because this case was so big that they probably were camping outside this house.

SPEAKER_11 18:37

Um, it wasn't so big, it wasn't that big by the 26th. I feel like it's an over-exaggeration. I would like to see if if there's that many news cameras out there, I would like to see time-stamped news footage from the 26th. Because everyone said the news, the way the way the where the news people were set up, you would be able to see that house in the background as well. Therefore, this should be easily provable. And I'm not saying it didn't happen, but also law enforcement, especially in 25 years, is not going to take a situation like that lightly, lightly, and make a definitive statement as far as clearing those individuals without being certain that they have an alibi that they could be cleared. And again, to use the argument that they did, this is you know, if it's broad daylight, and where's the forensic evidence in the van? Yes, there you know, there was a mattress of person, but where you know the duct tape. Where's where where was the testing in the van that matched Lacey? Where was any DNA where that that that matched Lacey?

SPEAKER_05 19:50

Something I I I'm not saying lacey, but I know I remember their crucial piece of evidence, which I'm sure we're gonna go into, is a piece of duct tape from that van.

SPEAKER_11 20:06

Okay, creepy van. You know, yes, burglars around Christmas, not surprising. Have like said the people walking going to people's houses on the 23rd. That sounds like the MO from Home Alone.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

That's what I was just saying.

SPEAKER_11 20:19

Um and I'm you know, and I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'm saying the police are not going to clear someone lightly because one, you're throwing your case out the window if you're not a hundred percent certain.

SPEAKER_05 20:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 20:31

And yes, they do make mistakes, but you know, they clearly, they clearly were able to conclusively decide come to a reason that they said they were cleared. And, you know, I I would like to know what that is. You know, I would like to see if that you know, is it is it that they did have tunnel vision and they were only looking at Scott at that point, or is it that they were able to completely like place them somewhere else at that time? Could this just be one of those red herring situations? But then again, you also remember that I, you know, you know, when when she said that, you know, well, if these burglars happened on the 26th, then that that proof's got into it. I'm like, well, you know what? In Delphi, and I hate to bring back Delphi, but you know, coincidences do happen in true in crime. Liberty German was talking to a child predator the day that someone else then murdered her. So, you know, there are you know, that's part of what's led to the speculation that, you know, this person that's a child predator has something to do with with Libby and Abbey's murder in Delphi. Um, but law enforcement have were able to come out and conclusively say there's no connection, there's nothing placing him anywhere near Delphi that day. And in fact, they can prove he was two hours away or an hour away in Peru.

SPEAKER_07 21:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_11 21:58

So I don't mean to bring back up Delphi, but them just saying those two things, you know, yes, it's weird, it's a coincidence, but it happens. So there could have been a burglary across the street on the twenty-fourth, and it might not have had anything to do with Lacey getting kid you know, murdered across the street by her husband or whoever. And in fact, it's one less neighbor that wasn't home. How many of the neighbors were out of town on vacation? So all these people that didn't see Scott, all the people that didn't see Scott, you know, put her in the truck.

SPEAKER_07 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 22:30

You know, they said there were all these witnesses that saw that. Well, how many of them were out of town for Christmas? We know one house was empty.

SPEAKER_05 22:40

The only the other thing that caught me from this episode, and that's it, is they were going door to door saying they lost their dog. Why was Mackenzie running around with a leash on?

SPEAKER_11 22:52

So maybe Scott let her maybe 'cause maybe Scott let the dog out knowing the dog would be loyal and come back, but left the leash on so it would be like, oh, Lacey must have taken him on the walk and disappeared.

SPEAKER_05 23:07

I was gonna say, like, it's that's a motive, right? An alibi, but if theoretically these burglars were there on the 24th, who's to say that they weren't going to use Mackenzie as an alibi? Because if Mackenzie's running around with a leash, oh I lost my dog, I lost my dog, and then all of a sudden Mackenzie's running around with a leash and Karen finds her. Were they were they using Mackenzie as their dog that they lost? Like that's where my head went, and I'm like, okay, hold on. Am I overthinking this or am I Yeah?

SPEAKER_11 23:40

I think so. It's also I think then you have to yeah, I mean, then with if you go with the burglar the burglar Ravana thing, then you also have to there you have to go through so many steps to get to the to it making sense. Because you then have to say that they you know, one, either they happened to also know where Scott had gone that day so that they could frame him, or they coincidentally dumped her in the same place that her husband was fishing that day, or they kept her alive or kept her somewhere else and then dumped her in the the San Francisco Bay, like the defense likes to allude to weeks later or days later, you know, because that's at by that point it was public knowledge where Scott had been. Again, there's no um proof, there's not one witness saying they saw those two men anywhere near the San Francisco Bay. There's no indication they were anywhere near the bay, but we know Lacey ended up in the bay. So unless you can pr you know, unless you can put those two men or that vehicle at the San Francisco Bay, then I can't go from A I can't go from A to F without going through B C D any. I was just gonna I was just gonna say she was 36 days from her due date because she was due February 10th. I only know that because it's my sister's birthday. Um but um so I mean that fits in that like everything they were saying, like the five weeks thing, right? She had about five weeks left in her pregnancy if the baby were to come on time. And again, I don't understand the all putting all this emphasis on the size of the baby. Yeah, you you you know, she she she died before she got her 37-week ultrasound. Okay. I mean what benefit does it I mean, I I don't I just I don't get that.

SPEAKER_05 25:39

I'm like they're trying to figure out I think if they can determine how old Connor is, they can determine the date that she actually died. That that that way they can say, okay, it was Scott on the 26th or it was the burglar on the 26th. Whatever. And they they can't prove that.

SPEAKER_11 25:54

They're not but you know, the thing is they're not gonna be able to determine it within a two-day period. Not not with the not after being in the water for four months. And I still Yes, they could test the but they could test his bones, but I mean you have to also think about what happens to a hu a human body when it's in the water. The gases, and that's even with an infant. There's you know, so I mean the size of that child, the only way that you they get anything accurate at all about the size of it would be I guess the bone testing. Like they you know, like which is why that woman the bone doctor was doing I uh I believe Connor was fully intact when they found him. Yeah, he's um they found him first, right? And then they found Daisy two days later or four days later.

SPEAKER_05 26:46

One day it was two days later. It was close.

SPEAKER_07 26:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:51

A day or two. And they're gonna be a little bit more. Twine or string or something wrapped around him. That was another hypothesis.

SPEAKER_11 27:01

But they think that but they think that that happened, but I think I but I think they think that did happen like while in the water. Right.

SPEAKER_05 27:08

With the brief floating down.

SPEAKER_11 27:10

Kind of like there were people that thought that the anchor was from Scott, you know, but that they found originally that they thought was a body. That he was very excited to find out was not a body, because he was even though that was found in the area she ended up being found in, and he was very concerned. That's drawing to a close.

SPEAKER_15 27:29

He's an expert in maternal fetal medicine.

SPEAKER_13 27:32

In my expert opinion, the date of death was between December 23rd and December 24th.

SPEAKER_14 27:38

Did the growth percentile that the unborn child was in in the first trimester of the december?

SPEAKER_21 27:50

What he lacked in competency and scientific basis, he more than made confidence in his opinions. That was a great source of frustration. I thought the jury could see Mark Garagos.

SPEAKER_14 28:13

I want to get your response to his position that it was that it was junk science that you brought to the trial. It's a great question.

SPEAKER_13 28:20

For Gargoy's say it was junk to science, and he had a great opportunity to prove that junk science was wrong. He had no idea. He hadn't prepared.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

I was surprised when I heard the very narrow window that Dr. DeVore had uh presented. I I don't know what information Dr. DeVore or some of the other experts have had that would lead them to give a more narrow window for the date of his death. I worry when we try and push data further than it supports. The only estimate that I can support is my 33 to 38 weeks. Because there are individual differences on babies, but I still think it's just a waste. A waste of a beautiful young woman, a waste of a baby. That's what I see as just the waste of two lives. Actually, three lives. Scott. Whether he's guilty or innocent, it's a life that's gone.

SPEAKER_14 29:27

DeVore gives a 48-hour range. Other experts believe that the range needs to be broader. If Connor Peterson died at any point after December 24th, Scott Peterson is not involved in that death because from that date forward, he was under constant surveillance. He was the suspect in the case, and he was being followed by the media. Dr. Wabner says in applying the NICHD equation, the best that he could get is a range, and he said the best that he could likely do is a 10 or 14-day range, I think.

SPEAKER_13 30:01

Well, first of all, he's asking the wrong question. Wabner was talking apples and oranges both.

SPEAKER_14 30:08

But but you don't know when we think the phoetest died. That's that's that's the entire question.

SPEAKER_13 30:12

Making the assumption that when she disappeared, that would be her death date. If you're gonna relitigate the case, that's fine, that's an opinion. But the question is, who's right? The easiest way out is to say, well, there's such a broad spread that we just can't determine that. That it certainly is good for the defense, but I don't I don't think that that's at all as accurate as they like it to make it to believe. We know when she disappeared, and we know the measurement that I obtained, it the day she disappeared at the 50th percent held.

SPEAKER_14 30:48

Is it at all compelling to you that the new longitudinal studies arrive at a conclusion that the child is a week or two weeks uh older than what was testified to in 2004? So you're completely on the same page with Dr. Galloway. Why shouldn't you be? I've I've gone at you from every angle, so thank you. I know you're a lawyer. I came into the conversation thinking that the forward march of science in your particular field must necessitate that over time we are becoming more and more precise in our ability to determine things like gestational age. But you seem to be saying that variation being what it is in nature, we can't reverse engineer this. I can't take the studies and back my way into a precise date of death.

unknown 31:40

Right.

SPEAKER_16 31:41

The best you can do based on just that um measurement is probably within 10 or 14 days.

SPEAKER_14 31:58

But did you think it was going to get down to an hour? When I signed on to do this, it had everything to do with the impact that the new science had on me. I would expect that someone like Wappner, who's this renowned expert, would say, oh yeah, the technology is eight years ahead. That's what Doomalo seems to say. And and Wappner says, no, the LAIP's expert makes what he considers the same mistake that the state's expert made at the time of trial, which is assuming that Connor Peterson would remain in the 50th growth percentile. Wappner says you just simply can't do that, so you have to have a range. If I'm asking myself what's more reasonable, the state's expert saying that he can narrow down Connor Peterson's date of death to a few days, or an expert who says you can't narrow down all of these unknowns to a single day. I'm immediately more drawn to the range. What was interesting is that Dr. Wapner most closely aligned with the testimony of Dr. Galloway at the time of trial, she was only willing to give uh wide range of dates for Connor and Lacey's likely deaths. And though she was the prosecution's witness, it seems they didn't like what she had to say, which is why they brought Dr. DeVore in to try to give them a specific date of death. The reality is that even if DeVore's findings are one day off, it exonerates Scott Peterson.

SPEAKER_09 33:36

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SPEAKER_14 33:47

You represented Frank Carson in a civil case against Stanislaus County. Tell me who Frank Carson is.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

I'm getting just as pissed as I was.

SPEAKER_20 33:54

Frank Carson was a very well-known criminal defense uh lawyer in Odesto, which is in Stanislaus County. Allegedly, a well-known myth addict named Corey Kaufman went on Frank Carson's property to steal things. And then in March of 2012, Kaufman went missing. As soon as Frank Carson's name came up, the local law enforcement started going after him. There was no evidence that there wasn't one bit of DNA, there wasn't a fingerprint, there wasn't a bullet. Why go after Frank Carson? Frank Carson was quite controversial to the DA's office. He was a very aggressive defense attorney. He was well known and much disliked by all of law enforcement people, but particularly by the DA's office and by the DA herself, Birgit Flatiger.

SPEAKER_14 34:56

Birgit Flatiger, who was also a prosecutor in Scott Peterson's trial. The similarities to the Peterson case are striking. Like Lacey, Corey Kaufman was a missing person's case, which was worked as a homicide. There were no forensics, there was no DNA, there was nothing tying law enforcement's main suspect, Frank Carson, to the crime. When you look at how they pursued the case, the criminal investigation just immediately said, this is the guy that's most likely, or this is the guy that we want to get. No forensic evidence, no murder weapon. How typical when you're only at the missing person stage is it for a prosecutor to be and the prosecutor's office to be directly involved in the investigation?

SPEAKER_20 35:38

Very unusual. And so it was again another thing that made you look like why are you going after Frank Carson, who was clearly innocent? To make matters even worse, in 2014, Frank Carson ran against her for DA. Of course, he didn't win.

SPEAKER_14 35:59

And now he gets arrested in 2015. A stunning scandal tonight.

SPEAKER_09 36:05

Nine people are in jail accused in a murder plot. Frank Carson is a prominent attorney in Modesto accused of orchestrating Kaufman's murder. This has been a long three-year investigation into the death and homicide of Corey Kaufman. We are pleased with the results of today's arrests, and we hope to serve justice for the Kaufman family.

SPEAKER_20 36:27

So they accused Frank Carson, they accused his wife, they accused a bunch of other people, and all of them went to jail. They had nothing more than circumstantial evidence than no forensic evidence, zero. But this was a DA that I believe was corrupt. I think it was very clear that Frank Carson was innocent, and the jury acquitted him within a day. Immediately after the trial, our firm was retained to move forward with a malicious prosecution, false arrest case. Unfortunately, within a year of the time that we filed the complaint, Frank died. This is the most outrageous case I've ever seen. To find somebody who is the lead prosecutor, the DA, who is intentionally going after somebody, she should have known better.

SPEAKER_10 37:40

The $22.5 million payout is one of the largest cash settlements in state history.

SPEAKER_20 37:58

But it leaves victims. You leave a wide wake of losses when you decide to go after a lot of innocent people. Frank died, and George De Filippo lost her husband.

SPEAKER_14 38:15

So we're examining another case that the Stanislaus County District Attorney's Office prosecuted where uh there is no forensic evidence of any kind, where there were um other eyewitnesses that were completely ignored. And we're in and I'm talking about the the Peterson case.

SPEAKER_20 38:34

I don't want to speak to the Peterson case, and that's not directly involved in it. All I can tell you is that the person where the buck stops here was Burger Flaniger. That's my view of everything. And I think that's the the $22 million settlement speaks to that. You've really got a question for judgment on other cases.

SPEAKER_14 39:14

The comparison just jumps off the page, screams at you. You've got the same attorneys involved. If a DA is willing to prosecute an attorney that they dislike, then it's not much of a step to say that they will happily prosecute someone like Scott Peterson.

SPEAKER_05 39:39

Stop. If she placed that dog in that gate at 1018, how did everybody say they saw her walking Mackenzie between 1030 and 11? How was how does 11 o'clock come into play?

SPEAKER_11 39:52

That was my point. They said they took the wheel.

SPEAKER_05 39:54

How does 1030 come into play?

SPEAKER_11 39:56

They took the when earlier they said 1034, she put the dog in the fence. But and then they said the woman that saw the dog at 1045 because she had to be at work at 11 that didn't know them was more credible. That's why I was like, what are they saying? They're taking the word off of someone that's never met them over the woman that lived there and put the dog in the backyard. And I'm like, I'm sorry, but we're like what five hours, ten hours into this documentary?

SPEAKER_07 40:19

And um Yeah, we are.

SPEAKER_11 40:25

And we just now the segment of the alternate theory. Like, what have we been watching?

SPEAKER_05 40:32

I don't even know. I just I I that was all the science. I thought we were just watching all another documentary just now.

SPEAKER_11 40:39

Like I was like, what that was all the science, and now they're gonna get to the speculative stuff.

SPEAKER_05 40:44

Yeah, when when you have ten minutes left.

SPEAKER_11 40:49

So I was gonna say the last segment.

SPEAKER_05 40:53

Like I'm gonna take Karen's word and say it was 1018. And I'm just going to say that the everybody who said they saw that dog in Lacey out after 1018 is not true.

SPEAKER_11 41:05

I mean, and I mean they had already they already said themselves you can't trust the dogs.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

No.

SPEAKER_11 41:11

But maybe the dog did it. Maybe McKinsey did it.

SPEAKER_14 41:15

Lacey Peterson took her dog for a walk. Listen, at this point There are 15 eyewitnesses that see Lacey Peterson walking her dog after the time that Scott Peterson for the Berkeley Marina. Lacey returns home, sees a suspicious van across the street, and goes over to find out what's going on. Lacey Peterson confronted career criminals who are engaged in the burglary of her neighbor's home, whether it was intentional, whether it was an accident that brought harm to her. If you're committing a burglary that is a felony, you know that that's a crime that's going to put you in prison. And some nosy neighbor comes along and you can't shut her up, you may very well trundle her into the back of your van to get her out of the way. Now that you're ready to leave the crime scene and she's seen you, now what do we do with this nosy, loud lady? There's a police reserve officer who saw a pregnant woman being pushed into the back of a van, roughly three and a half miles from her home. And the eyewitness statements of people who saw her alive after Scott left for the Berkeley Marines. Three and a half miles are enough to force you to consider the possibility that someone got themselves in trouble committing a felony, didn't want to get caught for it. From there, what happens is pure conjecture. But isn't it fascinating that these men who committed this felony immediately and pled guilty? They didn't even have to charge the guys. The guys immediately said, We did it. We did it, but we didn't have anything to do with that missing pregnant lady. How did he kill his wife and leave no trace whatsoever? Why is it that the cadaver dogs didn't find any scent of a dead body in the Peterson home or at the Peterson warehouse? While this is speculative, it is no more speculative than the motive theory that the state ran on.

SPEAKER_21 43:24

What do you think? I don't think I've told anybody what I actually think. Actually, I take that back. Jerry Spence, when he was still alive, he left out the was considering doing the appeal. And asked me that question. And I think Jerry Spence is the person that I've ever told my theory to. And he was convinced that I was right, but I'm I'm not articulating it. I think my theory would have to be proven in order to get him a new trial.

SPEAKER_07 43:56

Is it proving it tell us?

SPEAKER_21 43:58

My theory? Yes. Yes. I'll leave it at that.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

From a legal standpoint, he doesn't have to prove who else did. Prove it. What you're thinking about. Prove it.

SPEAKER_14 44:11

I mean, what you're saying, though, is that it's not enough of a story that they are destroying evidence. It's not enough that the state criminal justice system are hiding evidence. That's not a big enough story here in America today. All that describes is the breakdown of criminal justice and the breakdown of justice in America. The only way that this guy should get any relief whatsoever is if you can definitively prove who the real killer is. When the Los Angeles Innocence Project has effectively demonstrated that the investigators and the prosecutors here failed to turn over potentially material evidence to the defense, that should be enough. Back in 2003 and 2004, I argued on live national television over how this case and this investigation were being conducted. I argued at the time about the media's influence in the case. The media was leading the public to believe that this is an open and shut case when in fact there was no viable evidence against Scott Peterson. There was nothing but demeanor evidence against him. What our investigation over the last several months has convinced me. That the evidence that was presented to the jury was not just misleading, it was wrong and it was defective. The other really surprising thing is the fact that the states witnesses, in some cases, had agreed to do interviews and then at the last minute backed out. In other cases, states witnesses who have been giving interviews repeatedly for more than two decades, now that the LAIP has brought to the forefront exactly what happened in the course of this investigation, now they don't want to answer for it. I came into this having been uncomfortable with the extent to which the media influenced the narrative around this case. That was really what bothered me back in the early 2000s. Now that I have stress tested all of the LAIP's claims, you become more convinced that the investigators and the prosecutor's office were intent on winning this case at all costs. And in order to get there, they had to withhold exculpatory evidence from the defense team, and they had to bring experts in to give testimony to the jury that was untrue, unreliable, and not scientifically sound. Those are major indictments. Any one of these individual problems is enough to get a case overturned.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

The Innocence Project is saying when we add it all together, the new science attacking the old science, all of the destruction of the evidence, all of the withholding of information, the suppressing of information, that Scott's constitutional rights were deprived. And that because of all of those things, it also tends to show that he's actually innocent.

SPEAKER_21 47:51

You couldn't sit there and listen to the evidence and be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

SPEAKER_14 48:20

But we're talking about new scientific evidence, science that did not exist 24 years ago. Unreliable testimony means an unreliable verdict. That is what habeas corpus exists to redress. This is a case from demands review.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

It's not close. I can say on the law, and I can say just from a common sense standpoint, it makes sense why she would deny his motion. Because the bar that the criminal justice system has set for any given defendant, let alone a high-profile defendant such as Scott Peterson, to get a new trial is impossibly difficult. But nevertheless, when you're serving a life sentence, what else do you have to do but to fight for your own?

SPEAKER_11 49:25

It's not true.

SPEAKER_14 49:25

Look at it's happening all the time. The fact that a judge or judge's clerk could get it wrong isn't unheard of. The LAIP will appeal to the California Supreme Court. And if they have to, they can take it all the way to the federal appeals courts, which of course includes the U.S.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

Supreme Court. I do believe that if Scott Peterson is to get a new trial, there's going to have to be something of a forensic nature. Oh God. A hair that's tested, something along those lines. So I think it's all or nothing at this point for him.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

Yes. If this can affect every one of us.

SPEAKER_14 50:01

You mean we need to care enough about the way somebody says any one of us, it can affect every one of us. We need to care enough about the way criminal justice works that we hold our public officials to account. True. Any one of us that says, because I think Scott Peterson did it, it's okay that they destroyed evidence. It's okay that they withheld exculpatory evidence that Peterson and his defense team absolutely had a right to, that they never found out about even 20 years later. That it's not okay.

SPEAKER_11 51:23

And yet, even though it's now been they I mean I think the judge in 2026 and he fo denied all 14 um reasons that they, you know, that they presented. So every single thing that they presented that we just watched has now all been struck down in court. Yes, they're going to they are going to appeal to a higher to I think a lower state court or a higher I can't uh I can't remember it was I think it's actually just go back down to a lower court first and then to the appeals the way that this the way that it is because of the um but yeah I agree with the the one gentleman that said you know if it's going to take actual forensic evidence.

SPEAKER_05 52:06

Which they gave us none entire series.

SPEAKER_11 52:09

We we were told they we were told there was exculpatory evidence, we were told there was um withheld evidence, we we were told there was, you know, new science, but we weren't told what any of it was. And you know um none. And you know, I will say now, I I will say there's absolutely I don't think any use use in the defense not being handed over actual discovery, but something that you know has been deemed to have nothing to do with the crime doesn't necessarily mean it's discovery. Especially if the if the state is saying at the time they didn't have a report of it, they didn't have that phone call. Um and we you know, we know that sometimes discovery comes in in the middle of the trial. Do you remember in the Alex Murdoch first trial, the um the car forensics came in in the middle of the trial? Like the the results had just come back. So I mean, you know, I think it's important. I I I fully support there being um um there has to be forensic, and like he said, that's it. Well I think I fully support there being um discovery deadline set in place with with prosecution because I don't think the prosecution should intentionally uh drag their feet and then hand things over uh to the defen in to to the defense. But they also I also don't think you know they have to do the th the defense's job for them and you organize it all to the point where they can be like, here everything is, here's all the information and you you know I feel like you know they they you know turn it over. But you know, it does sometimes in these huge cases require lots of uh time and and and it does take more than it you know takes a while to to do it. Um and evidence keeps coming in. Like, you know, they still record prison conversations, so that's could potentially be discovery coming in even after a trial. That doesn't mean it was withheld.

SPEAKER_05 54:05

Yeah. But it can't be it can't be used against him. I mean as more.

SPEAKER_11 54:11

Like But you can paint you know, you can paint the you can you can paint this narrative which make which just sounds so nefarious and so conspiratorial when it it it could absolutely just be the most innocent thing ever. Like we may have just gotten this discovery or found it in an old pile. That doesn't mean it was withheld.

SPEAKER_05 54:31

I okay. I'm not convinced at all that he's innocent. This had not changed my perspective in any which way or form. There wasn't even a little bit of a hint to make me think Scott is innocent. All of it sounds like bullshit, all of it sounds like it's just shit beings on the walls and it sticks. All of it just sounds like quote, evidence, but they didn't show us evidence. They didn't show us timelines, they didn't show us metrics, they didn't show us data. They didn't they didn't even bring up the pliers with the hair or the anchors, they left those completely out. And those are two of the biggest things that Nancy Greg's focused on.

SPEAKER_11 55:08

And trust me, there's a reason why they probably left them out.

SPEAKER_05 55:11

Yes. Um don't forget those being left out.

SPEAKER_11 55:14

Oh, they also left out that, you know, yes, Scott handed over his phones. He had secret phones. That's how he that's how he was carrying on an affair with Amber Fry. He was a liar. So yes, he turned over all his devices. No, he didn't. He turned over the devices he uh, you know, he that he coped uh that he copped to own. He lied to his mom, he lied to his dad, he lied to his sister, he lied to his sister-in-law, who has an I think unhealthy um I feel like she's in love with him. Well, I'm not I mean I'm not gonna put I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go that far.

SPEAKER_05 55:49

I don't care.

SPEAKER_11 55:51

I mean, I mean, I don't know if my sister-in-law would go that far for me. Um but um but you know, and I will say, you know, I remember hearing about, you know, and I know this still happens, Scott is still still to this day one of the receives m more um attention and and mail and money on his commissary than almost any other inmate in the country. In the first couple years he was in um at San Quentin, he would get over a thousand letters a week. And these were people that were in love with him. They weren't people saying I mean I mean, I think his I think his commissary has been maxed out for 20 years. So I mean, to say that you know he's a victim in this too, and like, you know what? No, he hasn't lost his life. The only way he'd be a victim is if he was a proven innocent and just out there fighting for his innocence, and on the inside he's living cushy, other than the time he got attacked, which I don't even know. Was that March or April that someone attacked him?

SPEAKER_05 56:56

I didn't even remember hear I think I remember You got beat up uh something or you got hit or something like that.

SPEAKER_11 57:01

But um I don't know. But I mean in 20 years I think that's the first time I'd heard of anything like that happening.

SPEAKER_05 57:05

Yeah, he he plays a pretty low profile in jail.

SPEAKER_11 57:08

And he's and he because he's because he you know you you you narcissists can adapt for their communities pretty easily. And when you're that good guy that wants to be the you know, cigarettes and gets it. They usually do have pretty good repetitions and records, you know. That I bet the correct he's probably buddy buddy with the correctional officers. You know, because he wants to be the like the good guy.

SPEAKER_07 57:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_11 57:31

I couldn't have done this, I couldn't have done this. I'm a good guy. I just couldn't wait to have my little boy and play, you know, s you know, go golfing and fishing with him and if he tells the same story just for twenty. About how to get away from having an affair until I kill it.

SPEAKER_05 57:48

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_11 57:50

Um I'm still wanted still willing to I'm still willing to have my mind changed, but I would need to have the information in front of me. I would need you to not talk about it. I would need them to not present information to me as if I am an idiot. Because that's what I feel like that they just were like, hey, guess what? It's a magic trick. Guess what? Look over here, look over here. And I and sadly, it's going to work on some people. It's going to work on some people. There will be a new little uptick in people that think Scott Peterson deserves a new trial.

SPEAKER_05 58:22

Yeah, I think it's gonna be the younger generation that doesn't really know about the whole trial and the whole case from 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_11 58:29

Well, I th and I just well I feel like public trust in in in institutions are so is so fractured right now that there have that people look for conspiracies. And so that they look for anything they're like, oh, we were being lied to. It was the van theory, it was the burglar theory. You know, just like people are gonna say, you know, Charlie Kirk's mic exploded or this or that. It's there's gotta be conspiracy behind everything now, and nothing can be as as can be simple, you know. Dylan and Bethany had to have something to do with Idaho, you know. I mean, Richard Allen's not guilty in Delphi, you know, Brian Laundry's not dead.

SPEAKER_07 59:05

I mean sometimes things how they are.

SPEAKER_11 59:10

And people do horrible, horrible, unthinkable things. And sometimes sometimes people are wrongly, wrongly convicted. That's true. Sometimes they are. I've not seen any evidence of this to prove that.

SPEAKER_05 59:27

After this documentary, you will never convince me that Scott didn't do it. I don't care. I'm still 100% saying he didn't.

SPEAKER_11 59:34

If you show me if you show me that data and you show me all the evidence and and and and and and and it does point to it, I'm I'm happy to look at it. But don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 59:44

All of this was hearsay. Everything was hearsay.

SPEAKER_11 59:49

That I'm not gonna ask questions that I would think anyone with an IQ above 10 is going to ask. Like, okay, what's this new science? What data are you using to come to these conclusions?

SPEAKER_05 59:59

There were contrad uh contradictions throughout this whole thing, too. They would say one thing and then turn around and say something else, like the dates and the times and the lengths of times. He was remember he was that guy at the end was like, Oh, uh Connor was Connor died between the 23rd and 24th. So then Chris Pixley turned around and said, You said between the 23rd and 24th, and the doctor says, I never said that. That's too narrow. Dude, you just said it two seconds ago. Like, whoever edited this documentary.

SPEAKER_11 1:00:25

Well, just like they said, Oh, we don't know why the why the why the witnesses that saw the dog and Lacey were never were, you know, never called to the stand. And 30 seconds before that, Mark Gargo said, We thought we had them beat, so we didn't call any of them. So we do know why. But you know, again, I do want to say I don't want to bad because I you know, I I do I I do think that I do I do respect Chris um Pixley. Um I do Nanine I why why am I having trouble with her name again? Um Nanette. Um, you know, I I I I I think that, you know, I may disagree I disagree with their their theory um and their reasoning, but I do I agree with anything she said. But you know, I I don't especially yeah, I didn't I didn't at all. Um But I do respect Chris even though I disagree with him.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:16

I mean I respect both of them.

SPEAKER_11 1:01:17

I'm just I still have respect for Margaret Ghost even though I disagree with him.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:21

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_11 1:01:22

And I disagree with him on quite a few things.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:25

I'm just there was just one thing in that entire documentary that Mark pointed out to me that I was like Like I said earlier, it was the date between the twenty-fourth and the twenty-sixth. Which one was it because of the news cameras being outside? That's the only thing I was kinda like.

SPEAKER_11 1:01:40

Show us the show us that news footage on the twenty sixth. I'm gonna go. It won't show it to us. No. There's no time stamps. I w I want to see it. Because every other case I can it says, you know, oh, you know, I can find news clips with the times on them. But so where is the where are all these news crews on there on the 26th in the morning? And and how do we know what time that burglary took place, if even if it was the 26th?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:06

This documentary is a money grab for all of them.

SPEAKER_11 1:02:08

To make the back for 3 a.m. Because I because guess what? There wasn't it was not a big enough case yet, the news crew to route or at 3 a.m. It was not Nancy Guthrie. And like even when they talk about like the fact that, you know, like this stuff wasn't tested or this or you know, this was thrown away. You okay, how many how many latex gloves did they find investigating Nancy Guthrie's disappearance? Do you think they've saved all 950 of them that they decided had nothing to do with the case? So does that mean that, you know, years later, God hope, you know, God willing, they find her that if they find her and they arrest someone for this, that someone's gonna be like, nope, he's innocent because they threw away all the the 950 latex latex gloves they found that had no tie to her. So I'm just like you can't. You can cherry pick, I mean it it it's very easy to to paint a picture you want people to see. Like if I it it's kind of like is it cake or is it you know a shoe? You know, you can make anything look real.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:09

Well if you watch if you watched Chris Pixley's face when he would ask questions of these experts and then they kind of debunked what he and Mark thought he was kind of like he was open to both sides. He's I don't think Chris is here to say, nope, he's innocent, nope he's guilty, but no, because here here's the information I have that I'm presenting to you, make up your own mind. But in the back of his head, I mean he's he even said he never thought this case was handled the right way. So he's no he's going into this bias as well.

SPEAKER_11 1:03:37

Yeah, of course he is, but I think yeah, but he I think he's open about that. But I do think that he is also fair enough to understand um that he that he that you know because even when he's asked, you know, will this prove his innocent, he said, I think it'll come c it'll come closer to anything ever has before. That I mean, I guess after now watching it, he's not wrong. Because I mean it's the bar was here, and granted to me it's still here, but I guess for some people it's probably here. I you know, it's probably moved a little. Um, but I still respect Chris Pixley, I still think he's uh a good a good attorney and a good um uh analyst.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:19

I've listened to him talk about other cases and stuff.

SPEAKER_11 1:04:21

And and I think that you know it's always it's always takes guts to have an unpopular opinion, and he's and he's gone out there and he has. I remember watching him on Larry King with and Nancy Grayson him would go back and so young.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:32

I didn't realize that was him at Crancon.

SPEAKER_11 1:04:34

I'm like, hosting until I was talking to him, I didn't either.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:39

Um I was like, oh my god, I used to watch him. Like I but I didn't make the correlation.

SPEAKER_11 1:04:45

Nancy Grace and him, because you know, Nancy is always very, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:49

Oh, I want to see her I want to hear her feedback on this. Oh, I hope she does a a thing.

SPEAKER_11 1:04:54

But um, you know, so I mean, but even then he was pointing out the things that he didn't like about the case. And I will say, you know, I think we're in a we live in a different time. I would have liked there to have been cameras in this courtroom, just like I wish there were cameras in every courtroom. But um, you know, I guess in this case, I think both the prosecution and defense, I I don't think either of them wanted cameras in there. And this was one of the first like non-celebrities Mark Gargos represented.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause he read he represented Michael Jackson, went on a riot or like he was Britt.

SPEAKER_11 1:05:29

So it's like he, you know, I mean he did this, I think, for the you know, definitely uh probably any so I will you know at least give Mark the the credit that I'm sure he's made lots of money off of this case, but he's not been paid by Scott Peterson in a very, very long time. Um, no, I will say that you know in the scheme of the of cases he's handled, he the fact that he he must genuinely believe and care uh about Scott.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:57

I think he does.

SPEAKER_11 1:05:58

Because You know, I don't think this ranks that high up there on the uh on the on the cases he's he that he's profited from financially or popularity wise.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:08

I don't think Mark would have gone this far. I think he does truly believe Scott is innocent. I really uh I I really and I think he's gonna take it to his deathbed pushing up. I think he thinks, like he I think he just believes and he said from day one.

SPEAKER_11 1:06:28

I think they're like buddies at this point.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:30

Oh yeah. Yeah, it's probably who he was texting when he was on stage at KremCon.

SPEAKER_11 1:06:34

I kept I kept waiting for him to call in.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:36

Because these prisoners have cell phones and text and FaceTime in jail. So um Okay, so I'm gonna recap real quick.

SPEAKER_11 1:06:44

The biggest things that can I can I plug one thing really quickly?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:06:49

Um, so I don't know. I I I think you're you're a fan of them as well. But anyone that is um, and not to put to plug in other podcasts but for anyone that's a fan of the prosecutors podcast, um, who Brett and Alice are lovely people, they run a Substack on this case that is really, really good called Scott Peterson is still guilty. Um I suggest to everyone check it out because it's very uh and they lay it out because they're both prosecutors, um, so they lay out their reasoning behind why he's still and they explain also some of the the court rulings that have come about lately. So I think you it's their it's their substack, and if you just go to podcasters or pro prosecutors podcast, um you should be able to find their substack.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:33

All right. Yeah, I don't follow them actually, but I will.

SPEAKER_11 1:07:37

Oh, they're on you'd love, you would love them. You'd love to interview this.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:40

I may be following them.

SPEAKER_11 1:07:41

I follow so many that I can't uh I think I introduced you in at CrimeCon, but yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:46

Maybe I know I just wanted to I just want to recap my findings on this because we did this was a lot of hours invested into this docuseries. Um seven, eight hours.

SPEAKER_11 1:07:58

So well spent.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:00

Well made day Saturday. So um these documentaries, the first one, the part one's only an hour and a half, the second one's two hours, but because Aspen and I wanted to review it, it's just been taking a long time. And then I have to go in and edit this later. So yay! Um the thing is, this is what stuck out to me the most. The burglars walking around saying they lost a dog and Mackenzie's just running around with a leash, the van being reported two different colors, white and orange, and then when they find it, it's burnt and it's white and orange. The hypnosis thing that the cops had that witness do, her saying that yard work yard workers don't just look at people, and that's the reason why they're burglars and they're suspicious. Nobody took the witness stand. 15 witnesses in the neighborhood saw her, seven saw the van, and nine saw the initials, but not one of them was brought up to the witness stand. The set the dog scents weren't reliable. Um and then Lacey's handwriting was on the post-it notes that proving that she knew about the boat. Again, I didn't know that. That's the only new piece of evidence that I was like, oh, because they didn't present it until 2024. But it still doesn't matter if she knew about the boat or not. Um the dates that they keep jumping around the 23rd, the 24th, the 26th, the 28th, god knows, maybe February, who knows at this point. And them talking about the tar the cover for the boat, not the the straps not being stretched, it's not worn out, it's not dirty. I mean, that's all they have on this. That's the evidence. And none of it is new except the post-it notes that Lacey wrote on. That's it. That's the only new piece that I pulled out of that was that Lacey wrote on the wrote on the post-it notes and knew about the boat. That's it. I I don't know if you grabbed anything else, but that's it for me.

SPEAKER_11 1:10:01

No, I mean uh I mean, no, I mean I will say, you know, I always noticed, like I said, I it's very hard for me not to like notice the language they use in these in these in these docuseries now, uh especially when I mean we knew it was nar it was going to be an a a a narrative um opinion-based um docuseries to begin with. So I mean I it's not like anyone expected this to be an objective um look at the case. But um, you know, like I look at the language they use and you know and how can how how uh intentional that it is to use wording that's very convincing. And then you look at the things they leave out. And again, like you you pointed out the the cement blocks. Um you pointed out the um you pointed out the um They didn't talk about the cement at all. Um the fire. Um they didn't go really even into um Scott cleaning out the baby room.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:56

Didn't they talk about that?

SPEAKER_11 1:10:58

Ever and the or the bleach or the or the investigators when they came to the house that night and how it smelled like bleach. They never talked about they actually said the Martha Stewart show. Wasn't wasn't the Martha Stewart show, it was the Today show that Martha Stewart was featured on, and the prosecution thought the date was wrong, but the defense was actually correct in that. The prosecution just didn't watch the whole show, which was stupid of them. Um you know, the today's show is like two or three hours long, and they I guess just didn't watch the whole thing. But she was on that on that day. Um and so, you know, but then they didn't they didn't mention at all the clothing that Lacey was wearing. Um the or the clothing she was found in. These are all pieces of these are all pieces of evidence that you know if that you know I think would play into proving or disproving part of their science or their narrative. Um and I feel like you know, I haven't dug into it that that deeply, but if they're not mentioning it, it's probably because it doesn't support their theory. Yeah. Um, but that being said, they convinced me I think he's innocent, and I will now um wear a free Scott Peterson forever shirt.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:16

I will never speak to you again, by the way.

SPEAKER_11 1:12:18

I know you're being sarcastic, but I'm going to write him a letter tonight and send him a few pictures.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:28

I'd like to write him a letter just to see if I got something back.

SPEAKER_11 1:12:31

Just to say, just to say, oh I'm going to catfish you to Scott Peterson.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:38

Yeah. No, I mean, I'll and all jokes aside, I back when this happened, I remember I was in high school and I remember looking at him going, man, he's a good-looking dude. Clearly not now. He was in his prime, but not now. Um Ben Affleck play a very good Scott Peterson, by the way.

SPEAKER_11 1:12:55

Probably should have tipped you off to maybe some toxic traits you may have been. Or you just have you know toxic attractions.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:07

I probably would have fallen right into Scott Peterson's trap, 100%.

SPEAKER_11 1:13:12

I think I I think I should have known that things weren't gonna go great for me in the romance world when uh, you know, Skeet Oltson's Scream was like my first.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:23

So I thought that Taylor Thomas was mine and Leonardo DiCaprio.

SPEAKER_11 1:13:27

Right. And then he goes to like, you know, like Taylor from Hansen. And then he goes from Charlie from Sons of Anarchy.

unknown 1:13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:13:34

I'm like, oh my gosh, you haven't showered in days. Just put on those same jeans, you're fine.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:38

Yeah, yeah. I went I went to the city.

SPEAKER_11 1:13:40

Oh, I love that marble marble light smell in your breath.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:45

Immediately fell in love with Ben Affleck when I was 12 when I saw him in JNC or saw him in Pearl Harbor, and he had I saw him in that movie, and I was like, that's when he got me with the big brown eyes. So I'm like, oh no, but he didn't turn out to be good either. He's a cheater and got kicked out of MGM's casino for uh counting cards. And so there's something about these narcissists bringing it back full circle, that they really do know how to manipulate, target the right vulnerable, loving people. Um, say what they know you want to hear, do what they know that you want to see them do. They can live a whole separate life. And this wasn't mentioned either, because of course it's not gonna fit the narrative. Scott lied and said he had college degrees from Caltech and some somewhere else. No, he doesn't, they're fake. So he's been a liar since high school. Huh?

SPEAKER_11 1:14:43

Did he have one degree?

SPEAKER_05 1:14:45

He had one, but he said he had two, but he the one from Caltech from according to this book wasn't real. And uh Sharon found that found that out later. But he has this has been a pattern, and that's that's an abuser, that's a narcissist, that's a cheater. They're patterns of lies, they're pathological liars. And they will do anything they they knew they know. There, I think narcissists, now you may disagree with me. I think narcissists have a very high IQ.

SPEAKER_11 1:15:14

Oh, you know, I was told very I was told um a long, long time ago, they're stupid. Um you know, you it takes intelligence to be you know, you you know, to be manip it takes intelligence to be manipulative.

unknown 1:15:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:15:30

And to be good at it.

unknown 1:15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:15:32

And narc now, however, narcissists I think are also so incredibly fragile that they will that they break very, very easily. Even if they don't do it outwardly, yeah, they crumble inside.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:44

That's why they're private people and they don't tell anybody their business because they don't want people to know that side.

SPEAKER_11 1:15:49

Sometimes that's what put you know sends them over the edge. Because you know, help anyone that that hurts a fragile narcissistic ego. You are automatically automatically then the the um the enemy.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:06

I clearly have become a target for narcissists, and I'm an empath. I love love. I just want to love and have someone love me. I could be homeless, and as long as I have my love with me, I'd be fine.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:19

And that's my problem.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:21

Yes, I did. I love love. Valentine's Day is my favorite holiday aspen. Come on.

SPEAKER_11 1:16:27

I mean, I like I like Valentine's Day too, but I mean it's my favorite day of the year. I mean, as far as the like top ten things I love, I don't know if love is one of them.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:38

I love love. However, there's so many different kinds of narcissists, just because just because you've dealt with one narcissist doesn't mean you know how to navigate all of them. They all play their own game in a different way.

SPEAKER_11 1:16:50

Yeah, but I mean, you know, but you know, it's kind of there's a shorthand. Raise this, you know, you know, you just have to you just have to raise raise that raise the level one up.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:17:00

So the big the best thing you can ever do to a narcissist is give them no give them no breath. Give them, you know, indifference is the bit the best weapon in the whole world.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:14

You have to cut them off like a limb that gives you no blood.

SPEAKER_11 1:17:16

Like just indifference is the most deafening thing you can do to a person. People would rather be hated than not matter.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:26

Yep. 100%.

SPEAKER_11 1:17:29

I have always had that in my in my arsenal in my school belt of self-protection.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:36

That's true, because I feel that way. I I don't care who doesn't like me, but I don't like being stonewalled.

SPEAKER_11 1:17:42

Because I love love so much that I have a whole arsenal of weapons that I use to protect the the the whole idea that I can continue to love. I love boundaries, I love airplanes, I hate flying, I love new cities, I love new adventures, I love like the way that like food smells. I love my niece, I love my cat, I love my friends. I'm okay not loving someone romantically ever again. See, I have this whole like I still believe in it.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:19

I still believe it all get my fairy tale, and I'm just naive. Even though I've been strangled and beaten and lied to and cheated on, I still have hope that there is a guy out there that has enough decency to treat a woman with respect. And I know they exist, but they're either married or go gay.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:37

Well, of course there is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:40

Um, I definitely, but yeah, we're gonna wrap this up. I definitely would have fallen on those fats. You like what?

SPEAKER_11 1:18:47

I also love not compromising.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:49

Yeah, I do enjoy that.

SPEAKER_11 1:18:51

Um I love eating Cheetos while I'm in bed or Doritos in bed with my cat and not being judged while I watch HGTV or forensic files as I go to sleep.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:05

Those shows relax me. Um, so yeah, that that docuseries I felt was the one of the most boring docuseries I've ever watched. I there weren't times I was falling asleep with my eyes open. Like, and I was starting to disassociate a little bit, and I just wasn't paying attention. Um, it wasn't anything new except the post-it note that you vote on. It wasn't convincing, it wasn't full of evidence, it wasn't anything that is substantial to prove me that he's innocent. I do not believe he's innocent. I probably never will believe it. I'm still saying this man is guilty. He killed Lacey, he had killed Connor, he did it on the 20th, the night of the 23rd, disposed her body in the middle of the night. That's it.

SPEAKER_11 1:19:47

That's my well, I will say that like I was like I say for any case, if if uh if viable, actual, real new evidence comes to light that presents that that presents factual information that could uh indicate uh the even the idea of his innocence. That's why our judicial system is set up the way it is. And that you know, and it if and if that if that evidence exists and he deserves a new trial, then he should get one. I think Alex Murdoch is somehow is is, you know, from the information I have, is involved whether he pulled the trigger or whether he was there when it happened with his wife and child's murder.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:34

He was there, but I don't think he pulled the trigger.

SPEAKER_11 1:20:36

I also think because of the because of what happened in his first trial, I believe that he deserves a new trial. I think it sucks for South Carolina. If I was a taxpayer in the state of South Carolina, I would be very upset. Um especially if they're not gonna be doing restitution for Becky Hill.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:54

But anybody in South Carolina that that happened to, they'd expect a free trial too, with somebody else could foot the city.

SPEAKER_11 1:20:59

Well, that's what and that's what I'm saying. So I mean like even if I even if I feel like the person is guilty, I also support that, you know, our uh that you know someone that a fair trial is is that our our constitution it like you know ensures all of us that right. And um, and you know what? I may hate what someone did, but if they if something happens like what happened in Alex Morart's trial, he deserved a new trial. I don't think Becky Hill intentionally swayed that jury, but what she did was wrong. And so, you know, if this happens in this case, then you know what he should get another a new trial. And hopefully then a whole nother jury will convict him. Just like I believe, you know, most unless new unless new evidence or information comes to light in Alex Murdoch's case, I believe the same thing will happen with Alex Murdoch. I think it will come to the same result. Um, but that's why I'm glad that you know things can be held up to the standard of being um in you know looked at or like or being analyzed. It's not the word that I'm thinking about. I think I'm brain dead after watching that.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:12

I I can't. My brain I I don't know what I just watched. That's the problem. Like, I don't know why it's only showing this side. I was I just I wanted to highlight Lacey, but I don't I don't know why.

SPEAKER_11 1:22:23

Did I sent you the um statement that um that Sharon said um had to say about the documentary? I don't know if you want to read that or not or not.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:31

Um yeah, so I read this the other day.

SPEAKER_11 1:22:34

Oh, okay. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:35

No, it's okay. Um Lacey Pearson's mother, Sharon, says she's tired of hearing new evidence that could clear her former son-in-law Scott Pearson. In NewsNationNow.com, it says in the murder of her daughter, an onborn grandson in 2002, it's never ending, and it's like ripping the scab off a wound every time, she told People magazine. All they're looking for right now is to throw everything against the wall and hope that something sticks. Bottom line, he is guilty, and that's it. Maybe I shouldn't sound so harsh, but I'm tired. I'm very, very, very tired.

SPEAKER_11 1:23:16

Can you imagine?

SPEAKER_05 1:23:18

I want to I want to pull something from this book.

SPEAKER_11 1:23:21

Um while you're doing that, I will say um, I, you know, I'm excited um to root to hear all of your um your listeners um and viewer everyone that's watching this or listening to this. Um, I really, really hope that you do comment or like we you know drop a comment. And and you know, do you agree with us? Do you think we're being too harsh? Do you think Scott Peterson is innocent? Did this change your opinion at all in any way on the case? Um yeah, I just want to know your feedback. And I'm I respect anyone's opinion, even if it's the exact opposite of mine. Even if you're like asking the dumbest person ever, like you don't know anything, he's innocent. I want to hear it. Like, give me, you know, people I mean, please don't call me down, be respectful, but you know, I I I do hope that you get a lot of feedback from this because I'll be interested to um hear what it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:16

I'm looking for something that um she wrote in this book again, the this book.

SPEAKER_11 1:24:28

Well, she's like um I think as of the beginning of this year, I think unintentional drug overdose and homicide are the two neck and neck leading um causes of death for pregnant women in the United States. That should say something. More more pregnant women die from homicide than from childbirth.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:55

She wrote something in this book about Lacey. And again, the moral of my podcast is we always want to shine light on the victim, right? And Lacey is I don't even know. Just listen to what I'm gonna say. Sharon says, Lacey's zest for life and her sense of humor come out clearly in her old school papers, which I saved to show her children one day. Take the questionnaire titled My Story, which she filled out on the first day of fourth grade in September of 1984. My name is Lacey Denise Rocha. She wrote in a big, loopy little girl's hand, clearly practicing her cursive. I weighed seven pounds, I now weigh 70, and I am four feet five inches tall. I have brown hair and brown eyes, I do not wear glasses. I do not have freckles. I am right-handed. There are five people in my family, counting me. There are my dad, mom, brother, me, and my sister. Sharon says the second page is called My Likes and Dislikes. And I just wanted to read this because this is who Lacey was. And she said this didn't change much through her adulthood. She was pretty much the same with all of this. She said that reading it and reliving her innocence makes her smile. She writes, eight things I like music, chocolate, roller skating, my cat, my best friend Amy, Great America, sweats, and playing. Eight things I really dislike. Shots, liver, waking up early, cigarette smoke, cleaning my room, homework, mosquito bites, and spinach. So she says on page three, she lists her all-time favorites. Her favorite number was three. Favorite color was blue. Her favorite school subject was social studies. Favorite animal, unicorn, which is weird because I said that word earlier and I did I forgot. Flower is the rose. It ended up being a sunflower. Song Mother's Girl. TV show, the Bill Cosby Show. Favorite time of day, three o'clock. Gee, I wonder why. Day of the week, Friday, month of the year, May. That's her birth month. Game to play with Scat. Places to visit. Great America. I don't know what that is. Sport, softball.

SPEAKER_11 1:27:19

Great America. What state did she grow up at? Great America. No, because where's she? She is she she's not from Minnesota, is she?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:27

No, they're from California. Unless they moved my number.

SPEAKER_11 1:27:30

Great America. It might be a theme. It might be like a um like a six flags type thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:34

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't remember if she always lived in California, but anyway.

SPEAKER_11 1:27:38

Right. I think Great America is like a kind of like a like a like a like a six flags.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:44

Holidays, Christmas, newspaper section, movies. Now this is coming from a fourth grader. Her favorite movie in fourth grade, Police Academy 2. Favorite car with a Lamborghini. She loved Taco Bell. Recording group Prince in the Revolu revolution. Actor John Ritter. I gotta give her props for that. Athlete Joe Montana. She loved Garfield. Her favorite was Mrs. Fisher. Her favorite clothes was a bathing suit. She loved clam chowder, salad, and shrimp, spare ribs, artichokes and sweet potatoes, hot fudge sundays, chicken nuttle soup. Her favorite candies were gummy worms. And her favorite ice cream was Rocky Road. So I just wanted to give a little bit of uh insight of who Lacey was. There's journal entries through this, there's diary entries.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:43

It's it's worth the read.

SPEAKER_11 1:28:46

It'd be great if um if Sharon would um not I'm not this shows uh us anything, but it'd be great if she um if she um you know did a did a chat did an update to it. Just you know, like not like a maybe a full not like uh but you know, do a new forward to it or a new, you know, put add a chapter to the end. I'm sure they would reprint it. You know, why she should make and then you know, instead of all these people making money off Scott, maybe she should make some.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:11

After she graduated, her last summer at home flew by, Sharon said. She wrote her mom this message, and after that I'm done, because I don't want to give the whole book away. She says, Mom, you are a very special woman in my life. I just wanted to take this time to say thank you for all your support and love. Although we have our differences, I will always love you. I am going to miss you, but that's what a telephone is made for. I hope you can support and stand by me, even though you do not agree with the decisions I make for my future. I love you, Mom, and your supporting my decisions mean a lot to me. You mean a lot to me, and I hope nothing will ever come between us. I want to congratulate you on your job and all the great success you have accomplished. I knew you could do it. I love you, Mom. Your daughter, Lacey. Quote, remember to always smile. Hi, Aspen, I'm telling you, read that book.

SPEAKER_11 1:30:05

Those words um I can only imagine resonate in a like an earthquake, like it's like an 8.10 earthquake compared to when she probably read them for the first time because I mean Yeah. I'm I think I'm gonna read that book again because anyway, um, you know, and you know, I also wanted to I also wanted to mention, I do need to go soon, but I wanted to mention um, you know, it's one of those things also that's hard to imagine. Connor would be Connor would be twenty three years old right now. He would be in graduate school or doing whatever he would be doing. Um and all of that just, you know, for because Scott what didn't want the life he chose and created so sensitive and so use so waste it's such a waste. You destroy all of these lives and for what reason because you're bored of ass. Because you're bored. I and I don't want I don't I I won't blame her because that no, I'm gonna blame her.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:18

I'm saying he looked at like that shouldn't have said it that way.

SPEAKER_11 1:31:22

Lots of people have affairs and don't kill their wife and a baby.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:25

Well, yeah, but I'm just saying, like, he did all of this for a piece of ass because that's that's why I think all cheaters do it. They don't care about anybody else except the piece of ass that they're getting in the moment.

SPEAKER_11 1:31:34

I think the dark I think that you have to have that darkness within you already, and I think that the piece of ass cut is something that you might seek out actually to give you the excuse to actually do it. Because you're too much of a coward to be on your own by yourself.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:48

That's codependent.

SPEAKER_11 1:31:50

You've got to line something up. But again, it's not about that, it's not about that other person. It never is. It's you know, I mean, they have it within them, they're just bored. They're just bored and they decide that you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:00

They need to be validated.

SPEAKER_11 1:32:01

That they chose and that they built is not good enough or not something that they want anymore. That they want to be a little boy and just go run away and play. And that, you know, sadly, that's pretty much what and that's what they're able to whittle people's entire worth down in their mind. Because I think you have to do that in order to kill someone.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:32:24

They have you have to you have to whittle their worth down to the absolute to where they are absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:30

But how could you whittle her not not just her anybody, but Lacey's worth down how? I mean, look how she just looked like a bright light angel.

SPEAKER_11 1:32:38

Like, I mean, the reason that we can't understand that, I'm grateful for.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:43

Oh, yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_11 1:32:45

Because if you could if you can't understand it, that's a problem. That scares me.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:49

I don't want to know you.

SPEAKER_11 1:32:51

Right. Now I can understand if someone gets someone kills someone out of like absolute anger or like revenge.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:57

That I can Sherry McCollum says in her book swans don't swim in a sewer, that sometimes it's justifiable.

SPEAKER_11 1:33:06

I mean I'm not gonna say, you know, I mean, typically when we you know, what's the first thing you think when a husband kills a wife? What a monster. When a woman kills their husband, you're like, what did he do? Um, you know, I but I I I do think that um to put your bare hand on anyone's neck, let alone someone that you have said you love, that you have vowed, taken vows in front of God and J um that you've been intimate with, that knows things about you no one else in the entire world has ever known, or that you could fight it. And the the person that you're supposed to be able to trust more than anything in the entire world that knows every good, bad everything about you. To put your hands around their neck and to physically feel the light leave their body. Especially knowing that there's you're weeks away from being born child is also dying as you're doing it. There's no place deep enough in hell for you to go. In my opinion. And I'm sorry to end on such a dark note, but that is that's where I keep going with this. The same as I do with Chris Watts. The same as I do with what Brian Laundry did to Gabby, the same as what all of these monsters have done. And and countless others will do in the future. Someone is probably doing it right now.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:32

Oh yeah. Next door across the street, down the road.

SPEAKER_11 1:34:35

Oh well, I mean lots of lots of people are doing it are getting strangled, right? Lots of lots of people are getting strangled right now in domestic, you know. And you know, sadly, not nearly enough of them will probably walk out the door tonight. But hopefully hopefully they will next time. So well I don't want to end on this on a negative note, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:57

No, it's true. It's important to talk about though. It's it's real, it's domestic violence awareness, and we're not gonna sugarcoat it. It's the honest truth, and that's when you speak with raw truth, that's when changes are made. Um, I don't know if I told you actually. I was up did I tell you I went to the senator's office two weeks ago and had a meeting with them? And the email that uh the Gavin Teo Faith Foundation endorsed for me back in February, Nikki gave me permission to give to the senator's office. They sent it up to Harrisburg.

SPEAKER_11 1:35:26

Nice.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:27

And I had a list of 10 things I want to see changed in the domestic violence laws and PFA laws and consequences here in PA. And the senator chief staff sent it up to a guy named Justin in Harrisburg. He emailed me back immediately the next day. It says he wants to meet with me mid-August. And he said, when the next budget comes around, he can see some of these things probably being implemented. And I'm just like, she's and then she's like, she went through my PFA and she's like, This is all you know, I see everything right here, but it's good, it's a hard defense because a lot of it's social media. And she says, But I do agree, we live in 2026 and more officers and people need to keep up with the times and how people are being stalked. Anyway, I just want to let you know, I did accomplish that. I was very proud of myself.

SPEAKER_11 1:36:12

Um Well, let me know if you need any help with any of it.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:16

Yeah, I will. No, it made me feel good. That immediate like she emailed me the next day, copied Justin, and he immediately got back to me and he's like, I want to meet mid-August. And I'm like, that's quick. Like, I was really surprised.

SPEAKER_11 1:36:27

If you do meet your senator, could you tell him to stop wearing gem shorts like he's Adam Sandler everywhere?

SPEAKER_05 1:36:32

No, you're talking about Fetterman. I might I'm just I I only met with the local senators, smarty friend of Scranton and Wilkes Fair, but yeah, I will I'll tell them. But yeah, that there's I'm I'm never gonna filter the truth and the facts about domestic violence data and metrics. It it's 750% more chance that they're gonna kill you if they've already put their hands around your neck.

SPEAKER_11 1:37:00

Yeah. You're 100% because I said if you if you have if you have that within you, then you have it in you to do it again. But uh I will say I want to end on a lighter note. Um, I will say, is none of my friends when they get married think it's as humorous as I do what I put in their wedding card. Congratulations, you just increased your chances of getting murdered by 50%.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:23

I would I would laugh.

SPEAKER_11 1:37:25

So remind remember me when you all my I do it to usually when my female friends like are having a bachelorette party or something.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:31

I would probably train that.

SPEAKER_11 1:37:33

Statistically, you are increasing your chances by 50%.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:38

You are 100%.

SPEAKER_11 1:37:39

Okay, I can't it's it's science. It's it's not me, it's science.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:44

You can buy me a wood chipper just in case. Yeah, see, guys, I've been I've been strangled. I can make light of it in a certain way because it's my twisted way of coping. So some people probably don't believe me when I say I've been strangled, I've been abused for nine years. Um, but you get to a point where you have to find some honeycomber in life, and I'm not making light of domestic violence, I'm not making light of somebody being strangled.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:06

The wood chipper is a joke because if somebody lays a hand on me again, that's gonna be the last time they lay their hand on anybody. And I'm just that's it.

SPEAKER_11 1:38:12

So I'd have to go rent one. But yeah, no, yeah, I mean, sometimes dark humor is is isn't is a way that people, you know that's how I cope. I use it to self-regulate sometimes.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:38:26

Just like I do self-deprecate but self-deprecation, not not not depth, not defecation.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:35

All right, we're gonna end. That's we're gonna get delirious. Well, that whole docuseries was defecation. I'm done. All right, guys. Thank you. If you've sat if you sat through both of these with us, regardless on your thought on if Scott is innocent or guilty, let us know in the comments. Let us know your thoughts. I I'm not against I like to hear people, I'm open-minded to hear your case. I might not agree with you, but I'm not gonna disrespect you. And and I expect that in return. Aspen respects or expects that in return. You can disagree with us, just you don't need to disrespect us, and vice versa. Like everybody's allowed to have an opinion. Everyone's opinions are welcome. Obviously, if you're not bullying people and putting down Lacey's family and making Scott to be a victim. If you say anything bad about Lacey, I will literally block him Dan you, and that's it. Like, I'm not playing that game. However, if you want to be a civilized adult and have a mature conversation, we're here. Follow us. We're both on Facebook, Aspen Connor and Tiff Klein. Turning the corner is my newest podcast. Um, it's about domestic violence, cheating, nonprofits, family dynamics, domestic violence, so many things. And then true crime with Tiff Klein. Um, I just hit over 4,000 downloads. So thank you for all your support. It's been fun. And we have a lot coming up. I have a lot of speakers booked between now, and I can announce Joe Scott Morgan's gonna be on my podcast in August, and Nicole and Jemmy is gonna be on my podcast in August, and Cheryl McCollum and Nicole and Jemmy Nicole and Jemmy of Mother Knows Death, and uh she has a podcaster with her daughter, and she's a pathologist. Okay, and Cheryl McCollum and never heard of Tina Patton, who is the sister of Melissa Wolfenberger, who was unfortunately murdered. That's gonna be the next podcast. She was unfortunately murdered and dismembered, and her father was the Flit River killer, and he helped solve his daughter's murder that he did not do from behind bars with Cheryl McCollum. So I'm gonna be interviewing Tina. So stay tuned for that episode. Tina is Melissa's sister. Um, I have a I have a bunch of standing after darks coming up next week. Um, I have some domestic violence survivors from my area that are willing to speak, and some want to be anonymous, some don't. It's fine, whatever they prefer. But yeah, I have a I have a big list now coming up. Monday night, I'm gonna be on a new podcast of lovers and liars. Lisa I can't.

SPEAKER_11 1:40:58

I think they just followed me on Instagram.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:59

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, she's she just came out with it. She has two podcasts, but this one's Liars and Lovers Podcast. And I will be on it Monday night, and we're gonna be ruthless, and I'm gonna talk to her about my most recent uh relationship issue. But anyway, thanks for tuning in.

SPEAKER_11 1:41:16

I thought the name was a targeted like dating app that I was gonna join or something, Lovers and Liars. But you know, like yes, you know, like I don't know if you watch um Saturday Live, but uh um I'm actually gonna have Joseph Scott Morgan on my show twice next month. Um Sheryl McCollum is actually going to start a new show for me. And then Nancy Grace um is actually what up, maybe the Nancy Grace. She's actually going to give me her show because I actually started Core TV before I was born.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:45

I literally told Cheryl the other day I said I texted her. I was like, who can girl up and get Nancy on my show? I'm like, I got the trifecta, I got Nicole, Cheryl, and Joe. I leave it to Perfecto with Nancy.

SPEAKER_11 1:41:56

Do you at least doing though? The one upper, she was my favorite. Kristen Wiggs my favorite. The one upper was like my favorite ever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:04

No, no, no. Yeah, she plays with her hair. Just like, yeah, I know. I knew what you were doing. I knew the reference.

SPEAKER_11 1:42:10

I was taking that before you were in born. Like, and the reason there's air.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:19

I can't do it as no, but I I ex I knew the exact reference you were doing. I always liked her on us, and now when she's like the um the Californians, they're like, Scott, why are you going down the I85?

SPEAKER_11 1:42:32

I I could probably do my deathbed, and she could do the scene in the skeleton key with uh her and um Bill Hader, and I would die laughing when she's gonna be.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:39

I think she's the funniest. Her and Kate McKinnon are I think are the funniest ones.

SPEAKER_11 1:42:44

And like the then seeing Wilson Phillips and Bridesmaids, that can be I I love Kristen Wick.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:51

That's a lot of Gilda Radner reference. Right. Yeah, so thank you for tuning in to True Crime with Tip Klein featuring Aspen Connor. This will be a two-part series. So if you missed the first one, make sure you go back and listen to part one before you miss listen to this one.

SPEAKER_11 1:43:05

I would say Justin Bateman can play Chris Pixley in the in the in the film version of um of this documentary.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:11

Please, I hope they don't make a film of this. Please don't put that in the universe. Please don't put that on.

SPEAKER_11 1:43:19

The lifetime one, Dean Kane. Didn't he play Scott Pini?

SPEAKER_05 1:43:22

He did. I think he played a good Scott, but I think Ben Ben Affleck. Ben Affleck would have been good. Ben Affleck was in Gone Girl.

SPEAKER_11 1:43:29

Well, look at Gone Girl. There's a lot of similarities there.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:32

Well, you know, what's more similar with that case is the Sherry Papini case. That's what Gone Girl is based off of.

SPEAKER_11 1:43:39

Yeah, I know. I I know Scott and um Ben Affleck's characters.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:44

But Ben played that character that's like Scott, but Ben would be a perfect Scott Peterson. Like 1 million percent. Like if they ever make an actual movie, I hope they don't, but if they did, Ben Affleck, Scott Peterson. That's I don't know who would play Lacey, but Ben Affleck for sure. But let's hope they don't make movies.

SPEAKER_11 1:44:02

Not like who not like Melissa McCarthy and um who's playing um who's playing uh John Ramsey.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:08

That's the weirdest casting I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_11 1:44:11

Actually, when I saw the picture of I it's because Melissa McCarthy, I actually can see is it Clive Owen?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:18

Yeah, I think so, yeah. I can't see her playing Patsy.

SPEAKER_11 1:44:21

I'm intrigued. It could go it could go either way. It could it could go either way. So I'm very intrigued. For anyone that doesn't know what we're talking about, I think it's gonna be on Netflix, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:30

Uh Paramount Plus and Christmas.

SPEAKER_11 1:44:32

Up here. No, I think it's gonna be on Netflix now. I think it switched to Netflix. Um but it's um Melissa McCarthy and Clive Owen are playing John and Patsy Ramsey.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:40

I wonder if John had any input on this, because he hasn't said anything about it.

SPEAKER_11 1:44:43

I mean Clive Owen. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:47

I'd be surprised. I wonder if Burke's gonna sue them too for making a show including him without permission. He saw he sued CBS in 2016 for like $750 million for basically saying that he did it.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:06

And Burke.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:08

Well, no, that Burke did that. That was Burke's lawsuit.

SPEAKER_11 1:45:11

Well, I I know well I I know but he was a monster.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:13

So if this sh no no, I mean he sued them in 2016.

SPEAKER_11 1:45:17

Oh, you're right. No, but um, but Scott, I mean, not I'm I literally am brain dead after watching that. Um John um John has sued a few uh people.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:28

Yeah. So I made you know Hey, if I was Burke, I I had the opportunities to CBS. I mean, he is.

SPEAKER_11 1:45:36

Oh Burke absolutely had he got every right to um before.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:40

Yeah, because they're slandering him and defamation, saying, Oh, you killed my you know, you killed your sister, but there's still no proof on it. And he said I was cleared with DNA, follow the extra.

SPEAKER_11 1:45:48

And that's you know, I'm like, what happened, you know. Well, luckily, you know, there luckily I I really do hope, and I you know we need to go, um, that you know, there are people do realize there are uh there should be consequences, and that free speech is not a an absolute and a given, and that's something that I've I've only been paying attention to the the the TikTok psych um civil case because of that. Did you know about the woman that early on before Brian Cober was even arrested in Idaho, she accused a f and a a um professor um of having a um a uh relationship with one of the victims and committing the murders with no proof other than she was a psychic and she's now been ordered to pay, you know, she's a million which you know and I don't know if you know she doesn't have ten million, so that but you know but um but you know what there should be consequences to make it outright. Uh people should be able to express their opinions and you know and and have present different uh points of view, but you should not be able to go out and and destroy someone's career and life just because you're getting 10,000 subscribers from it, or because you want to hurt somebody you have hate in your heart. So I'm glad I think there should be more consequences than over.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:08

If you have the proof though, what if what if I'm not saying her, but like say theoretically somebody did a podcast like that recently, but you have the proof to back it up, you have the receipts to prove that it's a fact.

SPEAKER_11 1:47:18

Well then you can't you then you can't get sued. I mean, or if you someone sues you and you have the and you're and what you're saying you can back up, then you're going to win the lawsuit.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:29

Yep. So as an insurance agent, I don't know if you know this, they're a thing called high profile customers. Anybody can buy this, but they're more so the people who are loaded. You can buy insurance to protect you in a case of slander and defamation. So if somebody did bring you to court to sue you for slander, you have the insurance to sit kick in and it will pay for the damages. Did you know that?

SPEAKER_11 1:47:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:52

I didn't I never knew that. I never knew that.

SPEAKER_11 1:47:55

I'm as sure. I mean, if you met me, I'm as sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:58

I never, but then I thought, well, how do all these people get money when they have like kidnapping? And they're like, oh, here's a ransom. We need five five hundred thousand dollars or a five five hundred thousand dollar reward. There it comes from you know donations, but I know it also comes from things like that. So it's a whole thing.

SPEAKER_11 1:48:17

My legs are insured, my lips are insured.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:20

Yeah, Taylor's cat Taylor Swift's cat's insured, so whatever. All right, let's wrap this up. This is going into Taylor Swift.

SPEAKER_11 1:48:27

I have a policy on you.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:28

That's fine. You can have a policy on anybody. They don't have to know about it. I can have an apol I can take out an insurance policy on anybody I want, and they don't even have to know about it. Nobody.

SPEAKER_07 1:48:41

So mine's all for us.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:44

I mean, in a sick world, I mean you could say who in my family is most likely to croak the soonest? Let me get an insurance policy on them right now. If they die within the next 10 years, I can benefit from it. But that's why these spouses do what they do. Because they're like, oh, we have life insurance. I'm gonna take our life, I benefit. Anyway, Chris is going way off topic. Now we're talking about insurance and Taylor Swift cats.

SPEAKER_11 1:49:06

Yeah, we said, and I think we said goodbye like 45 minutes ago.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:09

We did, but this is what we do. And next coming up, stay tuned. Aspen and I are gonna be making some episodes. He's been following the Murdoch case again. Um he had the here, he went to the hearing for the retrial. He's going to be going again to Lexington, South Carolina in August to watch that. Um so you know, that case was it was a mistrial, so it's starting all over again. So Aspen is following.

SPEAKER_11 1:49:33

Yeah, so um, I am yeah, I am definitely going to go to that. That's the 14th. Um, for anyone that's ever followed any of the cases in Bardstown, Kentucky, I'm also um gonna be in Kentucky, I believe, in the beginning of August, um, eight years um for the convicted murder of Crystal Rogers Nick Howe, or Brooke Brooks House, um, who I went to the trial last summer. His brother is uh been arrested and is facing perjury charges for lying to the grand lying during the during his in uh interrogation when being interviewed about Crystal's disappearance and uh and the other date that coincides with his grand jury um testimony that you gave in Crystal's disappearance, in which he also got caught recording, which is against law. But and he was a police officer at the time. So if you don't know Barstown, Kentucky I do. Uh it's a rabbit hole. I would look it up. And Crystal deserves Crystal's body has still never been found. There's still answers to be had there, and her father's murder has never been solved either.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:37

Well, stay tuned for that. Uh I'm gonna have Aspen back on and talk about the Murdoch trial because I like his insight because he's he's inside the courtroom. And I think I'm gonna start calling my episodes with Aspen inside the courtroom with Aspen Connor. I just think that's why I'm just gonna do it.

SPEAKER_11 1:50:50

The Delphi and then you have the Delphi oral arguments are coming up too.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:52

Yeah, you'll we'll cover that because Aspen had done two episodes with me prior on season two about Libby and Abby, highlighting who they were and keeping them in the in the you know spotlight and remembering them on who they were, not just a headline. So if you want to check those out, there are two episodes. One talks about him at the trial, one talks about Abby and Libby. So stay tuned for that. We're gonna definitely be doing more of those. The the Murdoch and Barnet Towns, Kentucky. I'm sure we'll get on there and do that. In the meantime, keep giving criminals the disrespect they deserve, and I will see you guys next time.